Behind the Scenes with Literary Agent Cathie Hedrick-Armstrong

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Hi, friends, before we get to our interview with Kathy Hedrick Armstrong, I wanted to mention a special giveaway that I am offering.

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So the spooky season is upon us and, with that in mind, I have joined forces with Adam Rosenbaum, author of the Ghost Rules, for a middle grade giveaway.

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We will be giving away copies of our books Heart and Souls and the Ghost Rules, along with a free online school visit running from 930 to 1007.

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For more information, visit me at Liesel Schmid on Twitter and Instagram.

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Hi friends, I'm Beth McMullin and I'm Lisa Schmid, and we're the co-hosts of Writers with Wrinkles.

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This is season three, episode 36.

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And today's guest is Kathy Hedrick Armstrong, a lifelong book lover and passionate storyteller.

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She began her publishing journey in 2014 with her debut novel, the Edge of Nowhere, a historical fiction inspired by her grandmother's life during the Dust Bowl and Great Depression.

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Kathy followed it up with Rome, a young adult novel addressing homelessness.

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After eight years as a literary agent, she's now with Marshall Lyon Literary Agency, where she continues to champion new voices in the industry.

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So welcome, kathy.

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We are super excited to have you on the show today.

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Thank you for inviting me.

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I'm super excited to be here.

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So, kathy, it's me when I first reached out to you.

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Now I follow you on Twitter and I love you to pieces.

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You are an open book.

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I watch how you engage and the banter you have that goes on with your clients Also.

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You just you're a very kind person and there's just all these things I just love about you so much.

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But I also have a very special connection with you and that we were both in the same debut group.

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We were Novel 19s and I actually I read Rome and loved it, thank you.

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And so it's one of those things where I just I can't believe I haven't asked you sooner to come on Writers With Wrinkles and all of a sudden the other day I was like, oh my God, what am I thinking?

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So here you are, and it was so much fun being in that debut group with you, oh, I felt like and probably you felt the same way we just had so many connections, so many friends that we made through that whole year and I just I hope every author has that opportunity to have a group like we had.

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Yeah, it was definitely a good group.

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I'm still in contact with a lot of those folks and it is fun to see where people like, how people have taken off, how people have grown and what directions they've gone.

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And so, yeah it was.

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It was a really fun group.

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It's nice to have that debut year together too, because you're all going through the same stuff, so you feel way less lonely because, of course, writing is a mostly solitary exercise, so and that debut year can feel so heady.

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You know, there are all these things that are coming at you that are brand new, so it is really, really nice to surround yourself with people who are exactly in the place that you are and have the same questions that you do and absolutely what was that like?

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I mean, just before we jump into the questions, being a debut author you are on the other end of the stick, so to speak, um, from being an agent.

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I wonder often if you got, like, posed different questions or if you know, if that, if you were treated differently, or just it took me a while to figure out, you were even an agent.

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Um, when I was in the group I was like, oh, I wonder what her experience is like being in a debut group, being both an agent and a little newbie author.

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Well, there's probably a reason that she didn't know that I was agenting at the same time.

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You kept it down low.

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I really did.

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You know, as an author first, I really struggled with whether or not I could be seen as legitimate, as an agent also.

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So there was a lot of imposter syndrome.

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I think we all know about imposter syndrome.

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It doesn't matter whether you're a newbie author or you.

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You know we all have it.

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So, actually, amazingly, it was Eric Smith at PS Literary that actually inadvertently he has no idea pulled me out of that imposter syndrome, because I was watching him.

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He started about the same time I did, and he had no, seemingly no imposter syndrome, and he was mailing deals left and right.

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I thought, you know, if he can do it and nobody's side eyeing him, maybe I can too, and so it took me about four years, though, to to finally say, okay, I can, I can do this, I can let people know this is what I'm doing, and but it was hard.

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Eric Smith is.

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He's been on the show and he's another person that I view as very kind and very giving to the writing community, and those are the kind of people I'm drawn to on social media, and so when I see those, I'm immediately eyeballing them like you're coming on the show, I want you Don't even bother saying no, and so I haven't met Eric yet and but that has always been my impression of him is very kind, very approachable.

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So absolutely I think your instincts were right on.

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So I'm just going to like throw you into the fire right away.

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So I'm used to it.

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That's what my clients do to me, so I'm good, I'm good to go Do not be nervous.

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Take a sip of water and embrace impact.

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Okay, so I remember on Twitter and I don't know if it's still a thing like query tip, hashtag, query tip so I think a lot of people, and especially people who are new to the game I know I made a zillion mistakes and I can look back on them now and check all at all the horrible things I did when I was querying but to save people that route that I went through, what are some of the do's and don'ts of queering that you see, that you can throw out there to writers to help them along their way?

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That's such a good question because I wish I'd had the answers to that question when I started too.

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So before I say anything, I will start and tell you that I made every mistake you can possibly make as an author and I look back and I have so much empathy for those who are going through it now.

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So the biggest thing is make sure you're ready.

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I know when I first started, I wrote this whole book and I thought it was great.

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I mean, well, I thought it was really good and I pass it off to other people who were like this is wonderful, you should publish it.

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And I said okay.

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And then I started querying and I had no idea that it would be helpful to get you know a critique partner or two, if you can, somebody who ideally is another writer that maybe compliments your weaknesses and you compliment their weaknesses, so that you're kind of a yin and a yang, so you know other authors to read it, so they can share their experience with you in terms of actual querying, just understanding how to write a query letter, understanding the importance of really looking into the agents that you're thinking about querying and asking yourself is this really somebody that I would be comfortable representing me and you can only know so much from social media and from Googling and looking at their websites.

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But sometimes you get those gut feelings that say, yeah, I don't think that that would be a good fit for me and you should really listen to your gut.

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But yeah, just really make sure that you're following their submission guidelines, learn how to write a query letter and give them what they're asking for.

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I think that's the biggest thing is, you know I'm I'm very forgiving across the board, but one of the things I'm not forgiving about at all is I've posted pretty much everywhere Please do not send me queries to my email and I put it everywhere I possibly can.

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So there's no, if you, if you would look me up at all, you can't miss it.

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So invariably I get about five a week in my inbox and I automatically hit delete without even looking at it.

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I had a conversation very recently with this book coaching client of mine and it was about that very thing.

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Where he was, he was putting together a submission and he said they asked for 10 pages.

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Can I send 15?

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No, they asked for 10.

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And the reason they asked for 10 is because they just want 10.

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And one of the reasons why we ask for five or 10 or three pages or whatever it is, is because we really get what we need initially to get started to make that next step.

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So if you give me, if I asked for 10 pages and you send me 15 or 20, you're not helping the case any, because you're either reinforcing what I've already figured out.

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So whatever they ask for is what they need to know.

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I'm not going to get the whole story from 10 pages.

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I can't tell you much about the characters or anything in 10 pages, but I can tell you what your writing's like.

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I can tell you whether you're starting the right spot.

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I can tell you whether you're starting at the right spot.

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I can tell you whether you're engaging me, and those are the things that I'm looking for, and then I'll read more.

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Say their first chapter is 11 pages or 12 pages, do you still just want the 10 pages?

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Because I see that question posed a lot.

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I just got that question the other day, and what I usually tell people is don't stop in the middle of a sentence.

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I mean, if it's 10 pages and you have, you know, another sentence or two in that, in that paragraph, go ahead and finish it out.

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But again, you don't need to finish the whole chapter.

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I get a really good feeling and and you know, that might actually be a good thing too.

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If you don't finish it out, maybe I get to the end of that 10 pages and I'm like whoa, where's the rest of it?

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You know and that's what you want.

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That is is the best case scenario right there.

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You cannot wait for the next 10 pages.

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I love that.

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I think that is such a great thing to just reinforce to people.

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Follow the rules, give the agent what they're asking for.

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They have a system.

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They've done this a lot.

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They understand that they're going to get enough from 10 pages.

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It'll be okay.

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Deep breaths.

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Well, and I think, if any, if there are other agents out there that are like myself.

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It took me a long time to come up with what my what, worked best for me.

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I've asked for five pages, I've asked for three chapters, I've asked for 50 pages and now I'm down to 10 pages and then I go from there instead of asking for the full manuscript If I want to read more.

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Instead of asking for the full manuscript, I only asked for the next five chapters, and I do that because if I could ask for more, I can ask more people for the first five chapters.

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If I'm only committing myself to five chapters, whereas if I ask 20 people for the whole manuscript, I have this queue sitting out there that gives me anxiety.

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But five chapters I can sit down and knock that out in a half an hour.

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And that speaks to your experience too, because you've been doing this for long enough that you know exactly what you need, to have enough knowledge to say yes or no.

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That's what people should want from an agent somebody who can tell, who has that deep experience in figuring out what is going to work and what's going to be a good relationship.

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So I think that should be confidence building to people when you stumble across an agent who's very confident in what they need from you and that's what you need to deliver, I love that.

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That's what people need to hear.

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We're like highlighting and underlining this for everybody.

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If that's something that you can do in audio, we'll see.

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So, speaking about query letters, you say query letters to authors and we all break out in hives those words what do you look for?

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What is the query letter that makes you sit up and take notice?

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Oh, that's such a good question because it's such an easy thing to accomplish.

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It really is.

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So you just spent all this time and you've written this.

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You know 85 to a hundred thousand word manuscript, and now you got to put it in about three paragraphs.

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What are you going to do?

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And so I tell them you know, I tell clients or I tell authors when I go out and do presentations obviously you start with your, with your opening.

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You know, in terms of hello, whatever it is you want to say, don't give me a lot of information about why I'm going to love this manuscript and that so-and-so said it was great, and this person says it's awesome, and this person wants to write a movie about it, and all that because that's not helpful to me, because what I want to know is what is your story about?

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So start with just a brief opening Hi, I'm reaching out to you because I saw you on Twitter and you represent what I love to write, or something like that.

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Just something really brief.

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And then go into your brief synopsis, which has five very easy parts and it is.

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And actually I tell my clients this when they sit down to write a manuscript, like their next manuscript.

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I asked them to start with these five questions because if you get these five questions started, then not only do you have the core of your manuscript, but when you get ready to write that query, you've got it.

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So, who is your main character?

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What does your main character want?

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Who or what is standing in your main character's way?

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Okay, what do they need to do to get around that obstacle, that person or that thing that's staying in their way?

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And then, what are the positive or negative outcomes that might occur if they achieve their goals?

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So, and that fifth point, is your stakes.

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If you don't have stakes, you just have a journal.

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You don't really have a story.

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So if you get those things, you know, just say hello, get right into what those five things are, to write your query and then throw your bio at the very bottom of it and you're good to go, because that's where my eyes are going to go.

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Obviously you know your word count and your genre and everything like that, but precede it with a lot of extraneous information and my eyes glaze over by the time I get to the, to what your story is about, and you don't want that.

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That is another thing that everyone should highlight and underline right there.

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That is such a nice succinct way of hitting the beats that you need in that query letter.

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That is such a great way to put it, because there's so much stuff out there on query letters that I think if you're a new person just doing this for the first time, it must feel like your head is going to explode because there's just so much information and you're like what do I follow?

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What is true, what is real?

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It's intense.

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Well and when you think about it you know they talk about query letters should be no more than about 300 words.

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You have just written 85 to a hundred thousand words, and now you've got to break it down to that many words.

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So how do you, where do you start there and what you do?

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If you start with those five questions, you break out all that gray noise in the back.

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You don't even have to think about it, you just go straight to the point of what it is you've got.

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That is great.

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I love that so much.

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I'm going to write it down and put it on my wall.

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One of those things when you're working on a book right now and I'm in the last few chapters and, as you're saying, as you're listing off all those bullet points, I'm going through my head because it's all about me right now and I'm like am I answering all those questions?

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Am I doing all that right now?

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And so it just you know, and those are good things to think about when you're writing the story.

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You know, not alone, just you know, for your query, and before you send it off, make sure that you've answered all those questions.

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So next question and of course this is also something that's a big mystery for authors, because a lot of times you'll see writers say oh, you know, she posted that she wants this and you know I sent her exactly what she wants and she didn't sign.

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You know what I mean.

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You get I'm sure you see that all the time.

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I see it too, and I just you know.

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When people say that I'm like okay, you missed something.

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If that's what she wants, then you missed something in your story and it's time to self-reflect.

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But with all those kinds of swirling thoughts in mind, what is your decision-making process when taking on a new author?

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Like, what are all the aspects that you look at before you actually say I want to make the call with you.

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That's a good question.

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So first of all, obviously the writing has to be there.

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When I first started out, I had a lot more time to work with editing, specifically line edits and that kind of thing, and I don't have as much time anymore.

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So when I'm doing a lot of that then I'm taking time away from my other clients.

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So I'm looking for really clean writing and toward that end I mean I've got a lot of tools that I've provided to authors so that they can clean up their manuscripts and find those things that are obvious to the rest of the world but not to them.

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So I'm looking for clean writing Together with that and almost more important, because sometimes I can do a little bit with editing Almost more important is I got to have chemistry with that, with the manuscript, with the story, with the characters.

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I want to be pulled in.

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I want somebody to grab me by the throat and just make me turn those pages, and I don't mean that it has to be an action-packed novel or anything like that.

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A client just turned in a manuscript that I did not expect from her.

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I had no idea it was coming.

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It was not anything like she'd ever written and it was not one of those fast page turners.

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But it was one of those page turners that it pulled you in so deeply that you almost had a visceral connection, you know, to the pages and you just wanted to turn because you wanted to see what was going to happen next.

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But it was so quiet and so lovely and it was just kind of like floating on a stream kind of a thing.

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So it doesn't have to be one of those 007s we jump into, jump off the side of a building or something like that.

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It just needs to have something that causes me to continue reading.

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And I think one of the things that I would say and I think this is maybe the most important thing I ever tell authors when I pass is that reading is nothing more than chemistry.

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So I have to have chemistry with the manuscript in the same way that you have chemistry with your partner.

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And let's say, your partner is a twin, but you're in love with your partner but you're not in love with your partner's twin.

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And why is that?

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They look exactly the same.

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They've got all the same pieces there, even down to their brown hair and brown eyes or whatever it is, but the chemistry is not there and you can't quite describe why it's there with one and not the other just isn't.

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And and that's what reading is like for anybody you can pick up a book today and absolutely just not like it and wait six months and pick it up again and all of a sudden it resonates with you and uh and I've had that happen too.

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It's amazing and that's such a perfect analogy.

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I've never thought about that whole twin thing.

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Yeah, the twins look exactly alike.

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But you know you're in love with your, your partner, but not with their twin.

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Do you look at their social media to see, like, kind of, who they are?

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And because this is something we talk about a lot, yeah, warning people giving them the don't.

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You know, be careful what you post, because that is a reflection of who you are.

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Absolutely, I do look at it.

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I do not look at it.

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For what is your following like?

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Because I do fiction.

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So for nonfiction, obviously, your numbers are more important.

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But for fiction, what I'm looking for, and especially with my client base, my clients are like a family and I know that sounds kind of silly because we are in a business world, but they are all very, very close and they're close with me.

00:17:43.295 --> 00:17:49.009
They're close with each other and I don't want to do anything to upset that apple cart of those of those relationships working together.

00:17:49.009 --> 00:17:56.433
So I do, I go out there and I look at social media and I want to know that you're a good person, that your head's in the right spot, that you're kind, that you are helpful.

00:17:56.433 --> 00:17:58.115
If you can be, it's okay.

00:17:58.115 --> 00:18:00.137
If you're an introvert and there isn't I don't like bullies.

00:18:00.137 --> 00:18:14.589
I don't want to deal with somebody who's mean spirited and bullying somebody, because if you do that anonymously out there, you're going to come into my group and you're going to do it too and I won't stand for it.

00:18:14.770 --> 00:18:19.442
Have you ever turned somebody down or just decided not to based on their social media?

00:18:19.829 --> 00:18:22.034
Absolutely Without going into a lot of detail.

00:18:22.034 --> 00:18:33.355
There was an author that had queried me recently and went on to say some very, very unkind things about some people on Twitter, and it was a no-brainer for me to say I don't even need to look at the manuscript.

00:18:33.556 --> 00:18:41.336
I read something actually today Kathleen Schmidt, who writes Publishing Confidential on Substack, which is a great newsletter, I love it.

00:18:41.336 --> 00:18:46.943
And she had a post today that said if you don't want it in your obituary, don't say it.

00:18:46.983 --> 00:18:48.226
And I was like okay good.

00:18:48.269 --> 00:18:51.000
That's actually a good rule of thumb for people.

00:18:51.450 --> 00:18:56.582
That, and if you wouldn't say it to my face, don't sub tweet about me Exactly.

00:18:56.582 --> 00:19:03.135
And if you would say it to my face, would you say it a little kinder to my face than you're saying behind my back?

00:19:03.135 --> 00:19:10.704
Honesty is always okay, but there's a way to say things honestly without being deliberately hurtful, and that's what I look for.

00:19:10.704 --> 00:19:15.891
I mean, in this world with publishing, we're looking at each other's manuscripts and sometimes you get something in front of you.

00:19:15.891 --> 00:19:17.717
That is especially as an agent.

00:19:17.717 --> 00:19:22.237
Sometimes you get something in front of you that you just kind of are like what in the world did I just get?

00:19:22.237 --> 00:19:27.050
Okay, it needs a lot of work maybe, but I don't.

00:19:27.070 --> 00:19:29.015
You don't set it back and say, well, this is garbage, you know.

00:19:29.015 --> 00:19:35.340
Just don't you find what is workable in this, and you, if you're going to say something, you say, okay, I see what you've done here.

00:19:35.340 --> 00:19:37.875
Maybe this isn't quite what you intended to do.

00:19:37.875 --> 00:19:39.580
It's not getting across the way you want it to.

00:19:39.580 --> 00:19:42.795
This is how you might work on it, but it's not helpful.

00:19:42.795 --> 00:19:49.525
There's a difference between criticism and critique, and that's just not just for looking at manuscripts, but that's how you interact with people.

00:19:49.924 --> 00:19:58.170
Yeah, and so much of that has been lost when people think they can hide behind this veil of anonymity and just say whatever they want, which is so unfortunate.

00:19:58.170 --> 00:20:11.864
So it's nice to hear that you think about clients as family, because that implies a level of treatment that has kindness and respect at the top of the heap, which is good good for everybody.

00:20:12.569 --> 00:20:19.837
Sometimes I'm not sure if it's respect or if it's because I'm old, but I have a couple of clients that call me mom.

00:20:19.837 --> 00:20:24.155
You know, mom, you're embarrassing me in front of my friends.

00:20:24.256 --> 00:20:30.460
I actually really love that because it does feel like there's that element of parenting in it right.

00:20:31.211 --> 00:20:32.836
Oh my gosh, that is amazing.

00:20:32.836 --> 00:20:34.200
That's very funny.

00:20:34.200 --> 00:20:41.136
So, thinking about how competitive the market is, publishing has always been competitive.

00:20:41.136 --> 00:20:47.851
It continues to be, so it is a uphill battle, but one that we are willing to undertake most of us anyway.

00:20:47.851 --> 00:20:57.381
So if you are sitting there at your laptop working on your story, how do you balance writing from the heart and writing for the market?

00:20:57.381 --> 00:20:59.246
Is there a sweet spot?

00:20:59.246 --> 00:21:01.692
Do you lean into one versus the other?

00:21:01.692 --> 00:21:02.996
What are your thoughts on that?

00:21:03.457 --> 00:21:06.656
I thought about that question because I've had that question a lot.

00:21:06.656 --> 00:21:08.717
I get it from my clients all the time.

00:21:08.717 --> 00:21:12.160
I don't know if I have the right answer, but I will tell you what my answer is.

00:21:12.160 --> 00:21:15.439
And my answer is you really can't go wrong.

00:21:15.439 --> 00:21:18.934
If you're writing from the heart and what I mean by that is okay.

00:21:18.934 --> 00:21:20.019
We might not sell it.

00:21:20.019 --> 00:21:30.537
It may not be the right time right now for that, but as a reader I can tell if it's something that you loved writing or if you're writing to the market.

00:21:30.557 --> 00:21:32.864
Years ago, before I was an agent, I read a book by an author.

00:21:32.864 --> 00:21:42.401
It was like her second or third book and I'd liked her first or second book, but this one just didn't resonate with me and I just couldn't figure out why it wasn't hitting.

00:21:42.401 --> 00:21:53.571
And then shortly thereafter I saw an article or something by her where she made the comment of writing to the market is really challenging, but I do it so I can sell my books.

00:21:53.571 --> 00:21:54.115
And I went.

00:21:54.115 --> 00:21:55.320
That was the answer.

00:21:55.320 --> 00:21:56.325
That was the answer.

00:21:56.325 --> 00:22:05.601
That was why it didn't resonate with me, because on some level I knew she didn't love what she was writing in the same way Not that she didn't like what she was writing, but not in the same way when it comes from deep within.

00:22:08.990 --> 00:22:11.719
So when I have a client that comes to me and says I have three different projects, which one do you think I should do?

00:22:11.719 --> 00:22:12.741
You know, I'm going to be honest with you.

00:22:12.741 --> 00:22:15.496
I never can tell a hundred percent whether something's going to sell.

00:22:15.496 --> 00:22:16.258
I hope it will.

00:22:16.258 --> 00:22:17.721
I like the premise of it.

00:22:17.721 --> 00:22:22.477
I just say which one is calling to you, which one is just where.

00:22:22.477 --> 00:22:26.585
That's just pulling at your heartstrings and you just want to write that one and it might not sell right now.

00:22:26.585 --> 00:22:34.873
But if it doesn't sell right now, if it's not the right time, then let's put it in a drawer and go on to the next thing and we'll come back to it when the market does come back around for it.

00:22:36.596 --> 00:22:39.478
I like that answer because it feels very true.

00:22:39.478 --> 00:23:01.192
I think you see sometimes that same tension when you've got an author who has a wildly successful novel that then the publisher wants to serialize it and have more of them and by the third or fourth book you can tell they're writing to the market, no longer writing from the heart, and it has lost that essence that drew you to it in the first place.

00:23:01.192 --> 00:23:14.201
I think that's so interesting and you know I've written a bunch of series myself and I felt that by the end where I'm like I don't actually I still know these characters and I still love them, but I don't think that I'm doing them justice anymore.

00:23:14.520 --> 00:23:25.066
Yeah, yeah, interesting tension it is and I think, like I said, if you write from your heart, then your heart is in it and as a reader, I can feel that and I think that could be some aspect of that chemistry.

00:23:25.066 --> 00:23:28.864
That's just that nebulous thing that we're not quite sure why we feel it or why we don't.

00:23:28.864 --> 00:23:33.382
It may be some gut feeling, but we're connecting on some level.

00:23:34.344 --> 00:23:43.336
And honestly, as a writer, trying to force yourself to write to the market is hard and it doesn't feel good, and you know that you're doing it.

00:23:43.336 --> 00:23:47.435
When you're sitting down and you're thinking, can I even eke out 500 words today?

00:23:47.435 --> 00:23:53.138
I don't really want to, whereas if you're doing it sort of more personal, it feels like it's coming from the heart.

00:23:53.138 --> 00:23:54.969
You're just jamming through it, right?

00:23:54.989 --> 00:24:12.563
Because, it feels like something that you just are compelled to do and you must tell this story and so you can actually feel that in the, in the moment, and it's it's good to pay attention to you know, I feel like I've written enough books that I know now, if I'm going down this path where I'm like this is terrible, I don't want to do this.

00:24:12.563 --> 00:24:13.826
Nobody's going to want to read this.

00:24:14.555 --> 00:24:21.488
And you know, in publishing, you know the world, the big world out there, thinks that if you, if you publish a book, you're going to be rich, and that is just not true.

00:24:21.488 --> 00:24:33.144
So when you consider how much money we don't make and if you're sitting down and this feels like a job and it is grueling and you want to pull your hair out and you don't want to get up in the morning and write, then you're doing something wrong.

00:24:33.144 --> 00:24:40.288
So the answer is go back and figure out what it is that made you want to sit down the first time, to write the first thing, and it was something that you love doing.

00:24:40.887 --> 00:24:55.042
This is another thing that conversations I've had with friends recently about writing from the heart and writing for the market and I think it's something we all struggle with, especially when we're hearing how difficult publishing is in general.

00:24:55.042 --> 00:25:05.644
But it seems to be even more so right now that people are kind of scrambling a little bit, feeling like they need to write to the market instead of writing a story that's really calls to them.

00:25:06.165 --> 00:25:08.519
Sometimes you can, you can kind of merge the two.

00:25:08.519 --> 00:25:18.799
Sometimes you have something that really calls to you and you know, for example, I I'm just going to throw this out there Maybe right now, romance is into sports, okay.

00:25:18.799 --> 00:25:22.316
So maybe you know, maybe you've got a contemporary romance in your mind.

00:25:22.316 --> 00:25:22.977
Do you want to do this?

00:25:22.977 --> 00:25:30.182
Well, can you incorporate the sports aspect to appeal to those readers without, without taking out the heart part of it?

00:25:30.182 --> 00:25:43.987
I mean so, instead of the uh, the main character being a doctor or a lawyer, maybe he's a, he owns a gym, maybe you know whatever it is just to to kind of appeal to that piece of the market that is wanting what you, what you're putting out.

00:25:44.429 --> 00:25:55.003
That is such a perfect answer because we were, in the last episode, talking about you know right from your heart, but you also have to write from the business, from the perspective of this is a business.

00:25:55.003 --> 00:26:07.067
So if you're writing a story, that is truly something that you love, but you have to ask yourself in the same, at the same time, is this something that will find its way in the marketplace somewhere?

00:26:07.067 --> 00:26:10.763
You know, when they ask, when you ask for comps, there's a reason.

00:26:10.763 --> 00:26:17.248
You're asking for comps is because has that writer thought about how that story positions itself in the marketplace?

00:26:17.248 --> 00:26:33.875
And so what that advice you just gave is perfect, because it's combining the creative aspect along with the business aspect, which I think, if you want to be a published author, you have to come at it from those two points of view, merging together Absolutely.

00:26:34.518 --> 00:26:42.366
It makes a big difference and you're actually taking that piece that you love and you're attaching it to something that is going to be more workable in the industry.

00:26:42.915 --> 00:26:54.290
So one more question that, before I jump into the last question, is that we've heard a couple of times that you know it's really down to, instead of five year comps, it's like comps within the last two years.

00:26:54.290 --> 00:26:55.519
What's your take on that?

00:26:56.056 --> 00:27:09.563
I just heard that recently as well, I was at a conference, a writer's retreat actually, and I think the editor was from Sourcebooks, I think, and they told us two years, that they so that's what I'm going with now is two years.

00:27:09.563 --> 00:27:13.640
I mean, sometimes that's a little bit more challenging, but if I can get two years, that's what we do.

00:27:13.941 --> 00:27:21.846
That's good to know because that has come up a bunch in people asking us what we think about that, and we've been saying two years because I think we read it or heard it somewhere.

00:27:21.846 --> 00:27:36.038
But yeah, it does make sense because the market does change and if it's five years, you're actually talking about books that were written a substantial amount of time ago, almost a decade, yeah, so you've lost kind of that, the what's happening in the moment.

00:27:36.880 --> 00:27:54.655
Well, and the other thing about to is I've heard recently, you know, agents sit and talk and if you can find something within the last two years that was also published by the same publishing house, not necessarily that imprint, but you know, like if you've got Harper Collins and then an imprint under under Harper Collins as well, I've been told that that's very helpful too.

00:27:55.297 --> 00:27:56.538
That is very interesting.

00:27:56.578 --> 00:28:02.108
I never thought about that, so this leads to our very last question of the day.

00:28:02.108 --> 00:28:04.218
Sadly, sad face.

00:28:04.218 --> 00:28:05.461
I've got my sad face on.

00:28:05.461 --> 00:28:08.906
What type of story do you pray to?

00:28:08.906 --> 00:28:12.079
The literary gods will land on your desk.

00:28:12.079 --> 00:28:13.584
I know that there's something.

00:28:13.584 --> 00:28:18.345
Go ahead and throw it out there, sister, because I can already see it in your face that there's something you want.

00:28:19.174 --> 00:28:23.080
You know, I wish I could say specifically something I'm always looking.

00:28:23.080 --> 00:28:33.005
I think my favorite reads are those books that make me laugh in one minute, cry in the next minute and then laugh through tears in the next minute.

00:28:33.005 --> 00:28:37.398
So a book that will give me all those little pieces I want to.

00:28:37.398 --> 00:28:49.386
I love to feel I don't mind crying, I can have a full-fledged cry session but then make me laugh, and those are the best kinds of books in the world to me.

00:28:49.386 --> 00:28:55.898
So, genre aside, I mean that's not really helpful in terms of the exact project, but that's the fields of.

00:28:55.898 --> 00:29:00.238
What I'm looking for is anything that will just pull out every one of those feelings from me.

00:29:00.538 --> 00:29:02.021
That's actually a really good answer.

00:29:02.021 --> 00:29:03.404
Yeah, I love that, oh good.

00:29:04.146 --> 00:29:33.679
Well, because if you're pulling those out of me, you're going to be pulling them out of other people, and maybe you're not going to pull the tears out of somebody else, but you're going to pull the laughter out of somebody else, whereas I just tend saying about the heart of the book and those emotions come from the heart, and whether the main character owns a gym or is a lawyer is less relevant than the heart of the book.

00:29:33.759 --> 00:29:36.685
that is eliciting those responses from the reader.

00:29:36.685 --> 00:29:43.337
I think that's a great way to think about it, rather than topical or genre, the emotion that it's bringing.

00:29:44.119 --> 00:29:46.483
Emotion to me is really important.

00:29:46.483 --> 00:29:51.981
I don't think I'm that different than most readers as an agent or as a reader.

00:29:51.981 --> 00:30:06.817
When I sit down to read, I want to be so fully immersed that I feel like the main character and if you've done your job, I'm laughing as though this is happening to me, or I'm laughing as though this is happening to me, or I'm crying as though this is happening to me, or I'm laughing through tears because you make me feel ridiculous.

00:30:06.817 --> 00:30:09.242
Even though I'm not really that character, it feels like I am.

00:30:10.625 --> 00:30:11.248
Yeah, that's.

00:30:11.248 --> 00:30:16.631
That is definitely what all authors should be aspiring to.

00:30:17.132 --> 00:30:22.577
Yeah, if you can make yourself laugh and cry, you're onto something this is great.

00:30:22.659 --> 00:30:23.181
This is great.

00:30:23.181 --> 00:30:27.637
I saw somewhere, just to clarify, that you are closed to submissions until November 1st.

00:30:27.637 --> 00:30:28.721
Is that correct?

00:30:28.721 --> 00:30:33.640
Okay so just for people out there who are like this is now my dream agent.

00:30:33.640 --> 00:30:39.318
Please pause your enthusiasm until November 1st and do all your prep work and be ready to do it then.

00:30:40.019 --> 00:30:43.566
Work on making sure you've got all your last edits done.

00:30:43.566 --> 00:30:45.409
Follow me on Twitter if you want to.

00:30:45.409 --> 00:30:48.461
I've got some documents out there that I really help.

00:30:48.461 --> 00:30:50.247
Or actually just look at my query manager.

00:30:50.247 --> 00:30:51.441
There's some links out there also.

00:30:51.441 --> 00:30:54.056
Just spend that time making sure your manuscripts are in really good order.

00:30:54.616 --> 00:30:56.921
So this wraps up our time, kathy.

00:30:56.921 --> 00:31:00.989
Thank you so, so much for being here and sharing your experience with us.

00:31:00.989 --> 00:31:14.377
There are some real nuggets of gold in this conversation, and I know that our listeners are going to be excited to get on these things right away to make their submissions and their manuscripts all the more awesome.

00:31:14.377 --> 00:31:16.864
So thank you for joining us today.

00:31:16.864 --> 00:31:18.788
Thank you so much for inviting me.

00:31:18.788 --> 00:31:36.926
This is a pleasure and, listeners, please remember you can find out more about Kathy by visiting our podcast notes and the blog at writerswithwrinklesnet, and Lisa and I are back on October 14th answering your questions, so please send them in, and you can find out how to do that also on the website or in the podcast notes.

00:31:36.926 --> 00:31:41.373
So until then, happy reading, writing and listening.