Beta Readers, Book Comps and Barley's Cupcake Crisis

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Hi friends, I'm Beth McMullen and I'm Lisa Schmidt and we're the co-hosts of Writers with Wrinkles.

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This is season three, episode 37.

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And today we're answering questions.

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Quick note on how to submit Visit our website for the link Text from the podcast notes.

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Yell really loudly across time zones.

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We will hear you and I will put all this in the podcast notes so when that burning question that keeps you up all night, you want to send it to us.

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This will make it super easy.

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What's going on, lisa, before we get into the questions, what's happening in your universe other than your dog trying to kill himself by eating 27 chocolate cupcakes?

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Oh my God, this is a public service announcement.

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My dog, barley and anybody who knows me knows that Barley is a little bit of a nightmare.

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He's a black lab, he's always in trouble.

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He's eaten all my favorite foods.

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He is constantly doing something naughty, and the other day I'd got 12 of those little mini chocolate cupcakes and I was going to bed and all of a sudden I heard this weird crunching noise.

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I'm like what is that?

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When I walked over and barley was chewing on the remains of a plastic container that housed those cupcakes and so I went in and you know he's been known to grab stuff from various places, but they, they got left out and struck in by a guest and he ate like nine of them, and so all pandemonium broke out.

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But the good news not the good news, I mean the good news is he's fine, but there is a um, a poison hotline for dogs that you can call and they literally will.

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They literally will ask you how much he weighed, how many chocolate cupcakes, what was the brand, and they look up everything.

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They had the brand in there, they had everything, and then they came back within a few minutes and he's like well, he just had a good day.

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He's going to have an upset tummy, but otherwise so they're like watching him all night.

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But it was really scary.

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But the good news is, I mean, that's an amazing thing that you can call and and tap into.

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I had no idea that was even a thing, like I had never heard of that until you mentioned it and I was like, wow, that's cool, because you can know whether or not this is like okay, we have to bring this dog to the emergency vet or whatever, or okay, he's gonna be fine.

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He's just like you know now, has a taste for cupcakes and is a danger around sweets.

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I think the takeaway is that if there are cupcakes in your house, you must eat them yourself before you go to bed.

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Right?

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Do not leave cupcakes unattended for any amount of time.

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I got more cupcakes and this time I got vanilla and I'm like more chocolate cupcakes for you guys, cause I don't eat them, but I'm just like you guys are done.

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You're cut off for a while.

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I've you know my poor son, I thought you know he was traumatized and my husband and son, while I was calling the poison hotline, were just staring at me Like right right, work your magic mom, make this, make this okay.

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Yeah, that was great, but at least if they're vanilla, then it's just a sugar high and you know, it really seems like he's always on a sugar high, so you might not even notice.

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He is crazy.

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He is crazy.

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The other thing I donated a prize it was a kidlit writing contest and one of the prizes I donated was Heart and Souls copy of Heart and Souls.

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But then to critique somebody's first 10 pages, and so somebody sent them over this gal Hannah, and it was.

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You know those times when you're reading something and you get those little goosebumps.

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This was such a clever idea.

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Her pitch, like.

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I read the pitch and I was like if I was an editor I would buy it.

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On the pitch itself it was so good.

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And then I read the first 10 pages and it was so clever and so well-written.

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I just was like this is getting picked up.

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I mean, I haven't read the rest of it, obviously, but if it's as good as those first 10 pages, read the rest of it.

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Obviously, but if it's as good as those first 10 pages, this book.

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I mark my words right now first round, it will be get bought or it will go to auction.

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Does she have an agent already?

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Yeah, you know who our agent is Caitlin Sanchez.

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Oh great.

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Awesome.

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Look at these connections in the world it was just so funny.

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I'm like, of course you know, and I just I read it and I had nothing for her.

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I read, just so funny.

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I'm like, of course you know, and I just I read it and I I had nothing, for I read it four times Cause I was like I'm supposed to be critiquing it.

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You're like you get an A plus and a gold star.

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That's what I said.

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I'm like I read it four times.

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I let it sit for two days, I went back to it and I just I couldn't find anything wrong with it.

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And then, you know, I realized Caitlin was her agent.

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I'm like, of course, caitlin's already, you know, gone through it, that's actually really cool.

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Oh my God, it's so good, so good.

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I can hardly wait to be holding a copy of that book in my hands.

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I look forward to that moment.

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That is awesome.

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We have some questions from all you listeners out there who are, you know, trying to find a path through the publishing universe, and we're here to help.

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So what do we have teed up today?

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We had some really good questions from one of our listeners that is starting the beta process, trying to find critique partners, and she had some very specific questions and I don't know if we can use her name.

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I never know, you know.

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Let's not Okay, so why don't you throw out the first question and then we'll go from there?

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So the first question was what is the difference between a beta reader and a critique partner?

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And that's actually a really good question, right?

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Because I don't think we've ever talked about that in any capacity before and we've definitely talked about beta readers and talked about critique partners.

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But the difference is primarily that a beta reader is just that a reader.

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So what you're trying to find when your manuscript is done and you've revised and you've made it as good as you can make it and you're ready for some reader feedback.

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So the beta reader is somebody who fits your definition of ideal reader.

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So, for example, say, you're writing a rom-com and it features a 30-something in an urban environment and you know people who.

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That's how they describe their favorite books.

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You know, I want a rom-com that takes place in a city and I want the characters to be in their early 30s, I want them to be out in the world, not too young but not old yet, like that's what somebody loves, that's who you want to read your manuscript and you want to give them a specific set of questions to go along with their read.

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But it's not technical writing stuff, it's reader reaction stuff.

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So you'd say were you excited to turn the page?

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Did you feel like you connected with the main character, did you like the story, did you like the setting, things like that.

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But you're not looking for technical writing feedback.

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You're looking for reader reaction.

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That's your beta reader, your critique partner, on the other hand.

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That's your beta reader, your critique partner, on the other hand.

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Oh, and beta readers don't have to be and probably shouldn't be writers, because you really are just looking for a reader perspective and most readers are not writers.

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But your critique partner should be a writer, somebody who's in the trenches with you.

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Maybe you're in the same place, maybe they're behind or ahead of you, it doesn't matter, but they're the people who you are trying to get writer advice from.

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So that's going to be much more technical and writerly rather than reader.

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Does that make sense?

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Makes?

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sense to me.

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Maybe I'll do that next time.

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Well, I think sometimes we confuse the two and if you're asking somebody to read, you're asking for a different set of skills to be brought to bear on the read.

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And I think sometimes feelings get hurt because we ask critique partners to be readers and they want to give us technical advice and really we just want to know did you like the book?

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Did you keep turning the pages?

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Did you finish?

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Were you happy to finish?

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Were you thinking about it, which is different than them saying you know the ending of chapter one.

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I feel like you're losing the arc and you need to connect back to this thing you said before, like the very detailed sort of writerly stuff, right, and I think sometimes if we ask somebody to read and they react as a writer, then we get our feelings hurt because they're like yeah, yeah, you have problems where really you're like, do you like it or do you not like it?

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And I think adding onto that is, with your beta readers, don't go to family and that's just.

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I know a lot of people tend to like, oh, I'm going to give it to my mom or sister or whatever.

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You know, family has a tendency not to be honest because they love you and they're like Ooh, it's great, it's awesome.

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So it really go outside your family.

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That's like the biggest thing, Don't that's?

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You're not going to get, you know, objective feedback from a family member.

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And if you put them in a weird position too, because you're asking them to criticize you and that may be something they're very uncomfortable doing.

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So you're really just wasting everybody's time by doing it.

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Yeah, and it makes for an awkward Thanksgiving, Totally Cause you're like you hated my book, Ergo you hate me.

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Cause you know, writers are sensitive, so we overreact to stuff.

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So I think avoiding family for reading or writing advice unless you happen to be, you know, the Margaret Atwood's daughter or something then like stay away it's never going to lead to anything good.

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It doesn't help you, it doesn't help them, it just gets uncomfortable and, like you said, then you're stuck at Thanksgiving being like I kind of hate you down there at the end of the table.

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There's another.

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There's another difference too.

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So with a beta reader, you want to find somebody who likes that genre With a critique partner.

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They don't necessarily have to write the same stuff that you do.

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It's totally fine if they write something else, as long as they are experienced writers and can give you writerly advice.

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Like I, I can develop, mental, edit any genre.

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It doesn't necessarily mean that I am a reader of that genre.

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You know what I mean.

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So, like you're, you're looking at totally different skills for both.

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Yeah, the other thing this listener wanted to know was where do you find these critique partners?

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History critique partner floating around in the universe.

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And that's.

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You know, that's a really good question and I think even when you feel like you've found them, you may not have found the right fit the first couple of times.

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And it took me, you know, it took me a little bit and it wasn't like my critique partners were bad, it's just we were on different pages and you know, we developed as things changed as we, as we moved along.

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But I found my critique partners through SCBWI, which is a professional organization, and I found them at the very first meeting I attended.

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I literally sat down at the table with them and that's how I found them.

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So you may not be that lucky that if you wander into a room and they stumble into your little space right there.

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But there are so many different writing groups out there, whether you find them on Facebook.

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I know on Facebook there was also.

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There's like a Kidlet 411, and I'm just being very hyper-specific with Kidlet Kidlet 411, there's, like you know, people finding critique groups there you can find.

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So, whatever genre you're in, there's always organizations that you know.

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There's some that are free to join, some that you know may have a fee to join, but my advice would be to go find that organization that fits your writing, where you're at, and you will find critique partners, whether it's through their Facebook group or through their chat boards or whatever.

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That's the route I would go.

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Also keep in mind that it's okay to change if somebody's critiquing isn't helpful to you.

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Like you should never come away feeling bad after they've given you criticism.

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Like the criticism should be helpful, it should be constructive and it should give you a path forward.

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If it's making you feel bad, that's not a good fit.

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That's not what this is about.

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This is about helping you get from point A to point B and if you're stuck in the middle just feeling bad about your writing or feeling bad about yourself or whatever, just move on.

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It's totally fine.

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Not everybody's going to be the right fit.

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I think you mentioned the Facebook private groups.

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Those are actually a really good place to look for critique partners.

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There's a lot of people out there who are looking to trade projects and there's so many different genres represented that you can definitely find somebody who's writing in your space.

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I also think the number one thing is, if you are in a professional organization like SCBWI or Mystery Writers of America or anything like that, that's a great place to have as your initial effort, because it's kind of it should be tailor-made for you.

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You know they should be serving that up.

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This is a great place to connect with people who are also writing this type of thing.

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And yeah, just be open.

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Be open, remember, it's a time commitment and if you're going to ask somebody to read your stuff, you are going to have to read their stuff and you're going to have to do a good job, so be prepared to spend the time.

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If you're not prepared to spend the time, do not start the relationship, because it's really unfair for the person on the other side to get through your stuff.

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Give you lots of thoughtful feedback and then you're like, yeah, I got nothing well, I'm careful.

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I saw this, I saw this the other day.

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Somebody had posted something about on on Twitter that she felt like you know, I wouldn't make a difference if a published author was critiquing my work.

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Would that be bringing me up to the next level, instead of having the critique partners that I have on or that she has?

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And so you know that's?

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I don't think so.

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You know, it's one of those things you have to start wherever kind of you're at Like all my critique partners in the beginning we were all unpublished, and Catherine, who's still my critique partner she was unpublished.

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And Catherine, who's still my critique partner she was unpublished and we got published kind of like right after each other.

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We worked up together and that's just something.

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When you're starting out as a writer, you have to kind of get into the trenches and just you're not going to get some magical critique partner right away.

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That is like, okay, this person doesn't know what she's doing, but I know what I'm doing and you know, you kind of like you've got to find that fit and grow and work together, because when I first started critiquing, I did not know what I was doing and my critique partners were very you know, kind I was just like.

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I'm just going to critique from the point of view as a reader, as I'm trying to like learn as I go along and that's how I learned.

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How to critique is through their patients, you know, and my patients with them as well.

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So don't go into it thinking I'm going to get like somebody who's been doing this for five years when I've been doing this for three months.

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You're going to have to find people on the same level and be content with that and know that you're going to grow together.

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Yeah, and you'll learn.

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You know, you'll learn from how your stuff is critiqued, how to look at someone else's stuff.

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So, yeah, you're right, it's definitely a process, but it is time consuming.

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So be prepared to spend the time and be committed to spend the time and then you know, hopefully you'll find somebody who's a good fit.

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Yeah, and always, you know, make sure you're sandwiching your critiques with, starting off with, you know, a good compliment about what you liked about the writing, and then go into the critiques and don't get like a nitty personal dislike, be very matter of fact.

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And then, you know, finish it off with something positive, cause that's what we look for, those positive comments, and it helps ease the pain of the rest of the critiques.

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So just know that how you critique is just as important as what you're getting.

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Exactly, exactly.

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People aren't going to be open to hear what you're saying if you're, if they're feeling defensive.

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So make sure you try to practice kindness.

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Did we have switching topics?

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Did we have a question about the two-year comp rule?

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Did we want to talk about that?

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We?

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did.

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We had somebody message us and they were frustrated about the two-year comfort rule.

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Is you know?

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They wanted to know.

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Is it's real?

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Is it just one person?

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And I hate to say it, but I think it's real.

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We've heard from I think it's real too.

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Everyone we're talking to, yeah, and what's funny is they're like well, we heard from whoever this you know mysterious, nebulous editor out there that two years is really the rule, and I think it just enough.

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People hear it and have people say it, and then it becomes the expectation.

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So I think if, if there's a super compelling reason to maybe go for something that's slightly older just know that you're.

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You know it's a little bit risky Try to stay within that two year period.

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I mean, there's so many books published.

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I feel like you should be able to find something that comps to whatever you're working on in that two year period, and in a lot of ways it makes it easier because it's a set amount of titles, right, if you just say I'm not going to look at anything that was published before that two-year period, well, now you have a nice small subset that you can investigate.

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Yeah, and it doesn't have to be exactly the same as your book.

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You're just trying to look at something that's similar in nature, so that the person that you're querying or subbing to knows that you understand where your book belongs in the marketplace.

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So don't don't overthink it.

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You know.

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Get, but don't overthink it and go oh, mine's a cat book, but that's, you know, that's about goats, you know.

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I was just working with a book coaching client this week looking at comps for her manuscript, and she had given me a list that had a lot of older stuff on it, some of which some books of which I just loved, right.

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So I totally understood it.

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But I was saying, you know, it's a good exercise to do that list for yourself, because if your list has lots of older books on it but there are books that you love, that you really identify with and you feel like your book is is attached to those, then at least it gives you a place to start right.

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So you're looking for, then you're searching for comps to an existing title that you love, and that makes it easier because your book is not out there yet.

00:19:38.275 --> 00:19:46.161
So it's not like you can say, hey, internet, find me comps to my unpublished manuscript, because that's going to get you nothing.

00:19:46.161 --> 00:20:01.141
But if you're saying, hey, internet, give me comps to, I don't know, station 11, it's going to give you comps and then you're going to narrow it down to the new ones and then you're going to see if those fit your needs.

00:20:01.141 --> 00:20:07.932
So I think the ones that you've identified that are older, that you love, don't don't dismiss them.

00:20:07.932 --> 00:20:09.275
You're going to use those to help.

00:20:09.275 --> 00:20:12.242
Kind of call your your more present list.

00:20:13.590 --> 00:20:14.252
Make sure they're.

00:20:14.252 --> 00:20:19.314
They're books that aren't so obscure that the editor is going to be like I've never even heard of this before.

00:20:19.314 --> 00:20:20.217
You know it's.

00:20:20.217 --> 00:20:22.651
You know you you've got to find one that did.

00:20:22.651 --> 00:20:25.316
You know that relatively well in the marketplace.

00:20:25.316 --> 00:20:28.522
That will justify where you want to be.

00:20:28.522 --> 00:20:30.695
So don't get some.

00:20:30.695 --> 00:20:31.237
I don't know.

00:20:31.237 --> 00:20:32.661
I can't think of anything obscure.

00:20:32.890 --> 00:20:35.459
That is a super important point.

00:20:35.459 --> 00:20:44.782
This is about pitching your product, and you're not going to pitch your product by comparing it to something that didn't do well.

00:20:45.992 --> 00:20:47.221
Or that did like crazy.

00:20:47.221 --> 00:20:48.308
Well, you know what I mean.

00:20:49.432 --> 00:20:59.026
And honestly, if you want to include something that did like hit it out of the park, go ahead, but make sure there's others there to balance it.

00:20:59.026 --> 00:21:07.844
You know the things that did well enough to justify this publisher picking up your book and publishing it.

00:21:08.609 --> 00:21:17.180
Right, yeah, I mean, I think there was always that kind of ongoing joke that you know, and you're not the next, you know, james Patterson, or whatever you know.

00:21:17.180 --> 00:21:22.526
You just got to like, bring it back a little bit and not don't go too crazy.

00:21:24.451 --> 00:21:26.215
Don't have delusions of grandeur.

00:21:26.215 --> 00:21:27.961
Is it real?

00:21:30.996 --> 00:21:31.971
Maybe you are, I mean.

00:21:32.051 --> 00:21:32.795
I hope you are.

00:21:32.795 --> 00:21:34.555
I hope you're the next James Patterson.

00:21:34.555 --> 00:21:36.339
More power to you, That'd be great.

00:21:36.339 --> 00:21:38.855
Yeah, so all right, we covered a lot.

00:21:38.855 --> 00:21:43.259
We covered how to save your dog in the instant that they eat a lot of cupcakes.

00:21:43.259 --> 00:21:48.538
We have covered the critique partner versus beta reader and we've covered comps.

00:21:48.538 --> 00:21:53.037
I feel like our work is done here, so that's a good day.

00:21:53.037 --> 00:22:01.106
All right, listeners, we are back with episode 38 on October 28.

00:22:01.106 --> 00:22:01.969
That's a lot of eights.

00:22:01.969 --> 00:22:11.752
We're talking to literary agent Amy Nielsen, and if you want to know what agents are thinking and talking about and we know you all do please join us for that one.

00:22:11.752 --> 00:22:18.392
So until then, our lovely listeners, happy reading, writing and listening.

00:22:18.392 --> 00:22:21.135
Bye, Lisa, Bye, Beth, Bye guys.