Breaking Barriers in Publishing: Michele McAvoy on Small Press Success & Writing Realities

00:00:00              BETH MCMULLEN

Hi friends, I'm Beth McMullen. And I'm Lisa Schmidt. And we're the co -hosts of Writers with Wrinkles. This is season four, episode seven. And today we're excited to welcome Michelle McAvoy to the show. Michelle is a multi -award winning children's book author, publisher, attorney, and educator from New Jersey. While Michelle wears many hats, they all point towards a single goal, bringing entertaining and meaningful stories to kids. Michelle's publishing company, The Little Press, publishes picture books through young adult novels and has received numerous industry accolades, including from Kirkus Publishers Weekly and School Library Journal. Michelle's own published titles include Willow the Werewolf, Buckingham Gets a New Shell, Cookie and Milk, The Gorilla Picked Me, and My Superhero Grandpa.

00:00:47              BETH MCMULLEN

Michelle is represented by Daniel Kramer at Page Turner Literary Agency. And you can find out more about Michelle at michellemcavoy .com and her publishing company at littlepresspublishing .com. And I will add both of those links to the podcast notes so you'll be able to find her. Thank you for coming on today, Michelle. We are super excited to have you here.

00:01:08              MICHELE MCAVOY

Thanks for having me.

00:01:12              MICHELE MCAVOY

You wear a lot of hats.

00:01:12              LISA SCHMID

lot of hats. I wear a lot of hats. You do. And I have to say, one of the things when I originally reached out to you is because I'm so drawn to your books that your company publishes. The illustrations, I love. They just stand out so much. And the fact that you are a... you know you're a publishing machine it just feels like you are this one woman show and I'm like we've got to talk to this girl because she's got it going on and we do not so I'm messy I promise you it's not all that it's not all that pretty in the background but the final product is what matters right yeah

00:01:44              MICHELE MCAVOY

we do

00:01:48              MICHELE MCAVOY

messy I promise you it's not all that it's not all that pretty in the background but the final product is what matters right yeah

00:01:59              BETH MCMULLEN

So tell us a little bit about Little Press and what kinds of books that you publish. We know they're beautiful and we love what we see on the website. So just tell us a little bit about the publishing house.

00:02:09              MICHELE MCAVOY

Yeah, absolutely. So the Little Press publishes picture books through young adult. And we have probably about 21, I think, published titles at the moment. We have four new titles coming out in the fall, which we're super psyched about. And yeah, I mean, the mission of the publishing company is to bring new talent and new voices to children's literature. So in that way, we lean towards publishing either debut or earlier career authors and illustrators, which is a ton of fun. And yeah, I mean, I'm sure you have a whole list of questions, so I'll stop there. And if you don't have any follow -ups, I can keep talking.

00:02:53              LISA SCHMID

So I know what made you want to become a publisher? Because one of the things Beth and I always talk about is we're like sitting here lamenting about the publishing industry where, and we just went through this very same like conversation with another friend of ours, like we should start a publishing company. And we all think that it's just like one of those romantic visions of like, let's do it. And then you start like. pulling away the pieces of what it takes. And it's like, I don't think so. That sounds like a lot of work. So, you know, what made you want to do this? And what were your first steps?

00:03:26              MICHELE MCAVOY

Yeah, it is a lot of work. And it's almost like, you know, that that dream of, you know, opening up a bookstore, everybody wants to open up a bookstore, right? And then I saw this post once said, like, if you want to open up a bookstore that doubles out a bit as a bakery and a coffee house, like I'm with you. And I was like, Oh, no, that's me, you know, so I agree, like, It is sort of like this, you know, a lot of us are very creative and we have these beautiful romantic thoughts about, you know, being in the business more. And what does that mean? Right. For me, I was a published author. I, my first title is a self -published title. That's my first like entree into kid lit was a self -published title. And then I just dove in and just learned the business, right? And I'm an attorney by profession, so practicing 20 years. So I think that there is definitely, you know, a business mind and aspects that I always go at things with. So I'm creative, but I also have very much that business part of me. And then in 2020, so all of my traditionally published titles, my personal ones are with smaller publishing companies. And that is what allowed me to break into the industry and to break through sort of those gatekeepers, allows me to go to different book events and book fairs and things like that and be an author out there in the world called a published author. And a good book is a good book and kids don't know the logo on a spine and they don't care about the logo on a spine, right? And so small publishers gave me that opportunity. And so as I learned the business and I enjoyed, you know, when I saw what other small publishers were doing, I was like, I could do that. Like, I could totally do that. And in 2020, during the pandemic, I thought, I'm going to do that. So, you know, why not? That was a time where everybody was sort of like shooting for the stars and we were all cooped up and at home and trying to find a skate. In 2020, during the pandemic, I launched The Little Press as a traditional publishing company because before it was just a vehicle to self -publish my first title. I didn't even self -publish other titles through it. I just, you know, created it as a business for that one title. And that's when it started. And so from 2020 to 2025 now, we're in our fifth year anniversary, which is crazy and super exciting. But we've grown so significantly within that time. And I think, I mean, I attribute it to a lot of different things, but I certainly attribute it to our mission, which is bringing in these newer voices and this new talent. Because so many people just have beautiful work and beautiful talent, but you can't break in. You just can't. It's so difficult. And there's so many gatekeepers. And so that's what hasn't, I mean, there's more to say. It's a very loaded question for me because there's so many different reasons why I started the company, you know, but I think predominantly that was sort of like my business lean into the industry.

00:06:55              BETH MCMULLEN

I love that you are focusing on those people who seem... to be struggling to get around the barriers because there are so many barriers to publication nowadays. And it just gets more and more difficult to climb over those barriers as time goes by. You hear the statistics of the number of people who submit to agents in a calendar year. It's insane. So it is nice, really nice, I think. And our listeners will appreciate hearing that there are people out there who are focused on easing that burden a little bit and finding those people who are. I mean, most of these writers who are submitting are talented and their work is worthy. It's just that you can't get through that tiny little funnel. And we are, of course, here at the show, huge fans of small publishers because they do so much amazing work and with less resources and all of the struggles that go along with it. And yet they're still so impactful on the industry. So what resources did you call on? and tap when you started in this? Because it sounds like you had started this as really a vehicle for your own self -publishing. And now you were thinking, okay, I'm going to expand this to include other people. And as soon as you bring in other authors, it becomes exponentially more complicated. So did you have mentors? Did you have people who had done this? Or were you just like, I can figure this out as I go along? Just curious about your process.

00:08:22              MICHELE MCAVOY

Yeah. That's a funny question because I even just said to my husband the other day, like, I think I need a mentor. Like I want a mentor. I've never had a mentor. I never had a publishing mentor.

00:08:35              MICHELE MCAVOY

So, you know, it would be nice to have like a, like a publisher and editor from like a big five, you know, kind of just have somebody as a soundboard, but I didn't have that. I'm kind of a quick start. of individuals, so I have ideas, which is probably why I start so many different things sometimes. You're like, oh my gosh, Michelle's doing this again. So I'm kind of a quick start and I kind of learn as I go. I don't necessarily let myself get bogged down in the process because, you know, I believe in myself and I know I can do it. So I think in terms of what resources I pulled on when I started the company. And certainly when we started, we were print on demand. So we printed, you know, I took advantage of what Ingram had to offer, what KPP had to offer, and whatever the forms and information that's out there, you know, you can learn anything off the internet. And so, you know, and just really, it's all about connections. And I think I had already been in the industry for four to five years at that point. I'm a member of SCVWI. You know, I was active on social media, particularly Twitter was, you know, very big back then with, you know, for authors and illustrators. I think it still is. So, you know, really just pulling on my community was a big part of being able to make the company just get off the ground. And frankly, you know, it only took a couple people to believe in me and my mission. give me their creative babies, right? So my first traditionally published title through the little press was a middle grade called Bone Tree by Jenna Laney. No, she took a chance on us. She was our first. You know, that's hard. And I say even, you know, my first four that I brought in the door. So that would be Cabby Potts by Kathleen Wilford. Denise Gallagher did Moonsong and Jenny Chen did Emmett's Box. those four people really took a chance on me so i think the resources that you that i really pulled upon is just being able to like connect with people you know make sure that you're organized and professional enough that you know you're you're doing it right so that people have to trust you with their creative work and that's that goes Even so now, right, even though I'm five years in, it's really important to still pull on those community connections in order to get, you know, the quality work. And I don't do it on my own anymore. I have a team, which we could talk about that later. But I couldn't do anything that I do now, honestly, without my team.

00:11:22              LISA SCHMID

So when you first started, I mean, in Bone Tree, it's Bone Tree, correct? Yes. Which, P .S., I love the cover. That's a middle grade and that's a pretty, that's a pretty heavy lifting editorial process. Now, were you doing the editing or were you subbing that out to other people? Like, how did that work? I do all the editing. So I'm a little freak.

00:11:45              MICHELE MCAVOY

freak. I also, so I work full time as a editor for a large, I'm a legal editor for a large publishing company. So I am just, I'm always at. Like I'm opening, I'm always reading. And remember, I also was a practicing attorney for 20 years. So I just wrote all the time. I'm a little bit of a control freak. So I did edit Bone Tree. I did edit our other young adult novel in the ring alongside Monique Jones -Brown, who was also the editor on that. I don't. do the copy editing so i do contract that out so i even thought about going to school to get my certification and that and i was like michelle just stop just hire people to help you and so you know the commas and the grammar and all that stuff right i hired i contracted that out but i did do all the editing for bone tree and it was it was fantastic and i wanted to only do i started off only starting to do middle grade as a traditional press, I wasn't going to do picture books because I'm a, I'm predominantly a picture book writer and I didn't want to get in the weeds with that. I didn't want to get people thinking, oh, well, you know, you stole my idea or anything weird like that. Cause I gets it once. So I was like, I'm just going to do middle grade, but then obviously it expanded from there.

00:13:04              LISA SCHMID

Well, that's what I feel like I know you most for is your picture books and how adorable they are. So what is it like your day -to -day life of being a publisher look like? Because you clearly wear a lot of hats. You've got a lot going on. So what's just like, what's happening? What are you doing today?

00:13:27              MICHELE MCAVOY

My day to day. Okay. So, and this is good for everybody to hear because I also do, I have my own podcast called My Messy Muse and it's important that people understand that the process is oftentimes extremely messy. You know, my life is extremely messy, but you know, you still can try to fit things in. Right. And I think I, before starting the publishing company, I would get so, and even writing, I get so caught up in like. and i still do probably get caught up in like the process of things like i always like to know like what's your process you know i was listening to a woman and i'm going a little bit on a tangent but i'll get back to answer your question specifically when i was listening to a woman who told me that she wrote her novels while walking she had like four kids she wrote her novels while walking on the treadmill on her phone and that hearing that and she was very well published and hearing that gave me permission to just do it however i needed to do it to get it done right because i thought i need to get my butt in my seat and at my computer and write a book and then i heard this woman and she has all these beautiful novels and she you know selling and i thought well she does it on her phone then i could do it on my phone right or i could do it on stickies and so i think It's good to just all your listeners to know that you have permission to do it any way you have to. And however it gets done, because nobody knows, nobody knows, nobody sees, nobody cares about your process. It's just the end result, right? So my days are jam -packed when I get up at six. I'm not a morning person, but I have to be because my son has a 6 .45 a .m. bus for high school. That's a struggle. Some people are like, oh, 5 a .m. club. Never in a million years. Like, it won't even happen. I can stay up till 5 a .m. like through the night if I had to, but I'm not getting up at 5 in the morning. So I get up at 6. I get my kids off to school. And then I work a full -time editing physician at a large publisher. So that's like my bulk of my day, you know, besides for kids and, you know, throwing. trying to exercise in between there. So for the publishing company, I work mostly at night and on the weekends. So, you know, I don't really, my husband doesn't get a lot of TV time with me or a lot of, you know, time that he probably wants, but it's a passion. And so most of the publishing company time, like I said, goes on nights and weekends. I'm, I'm constantly working even when I'm at my kids events you know i might be on the the great thing is now you have a device you know your phone you can do a lot of work from your phone communicate with a lot of different people like right now we are in the midst midst of finalizing two of our titles for print abroad we're printing them in china so we're finalizing those files we're finalizing any other two files for print We've just changed distributors from Baker & Taylor to IPG. So we are working on the transition of all of our inventory and the inventory intake to IPG. I was up till 1130 last night putting together a presentation for the IPG sales team that was due on March 10th. So they got it at 1150 p .m. on March 10th. So it all gets done, but it gets done.

00:17:08              MICHELE MCAVOY

whenever it gets done.

00:17:10              LISA SCHMID

You're right. My desire for me to become a publisher has just evaporated like into the air. It's like,

00:17:19              BETH MCMULLEN

well, there's so much business in publishing that I think your average author doesn't recognize or doesn't appreciate or just doesn't know that it's a business and it has many, many moving parts. And that, you know, in addition to The editorial arm, there's all the business stuff that needs to happen in order to facilitate that book actually ending up on the shelf. I really like what you said, and I think about this a lot, about being less precious about the when, the where, and the how of producing the work. And I was thinking about this when I was in London a few weeks ago, and I had some free time. I literally was walking around dictating chapters of my work in progress into my notes app on my phone. And I think that in order to actually get done what needs to be done, even if it's just writing your draft, you have to steal those moments because sometimes other things in your life are going to get in the way, like your nine to five is going to get in the way, your kids, your family, your pets, your whatever. And so you have to be willing and able to work in any circumstance. It can't be just sitting at your desk in a quiet moment with your beautiful candle lit and your warm cup of coffee and blah, blah, blah. So, I mean, I appreciate you saying that.

00:18:52              MICHELE MCAVOY

Yeah. And I think too, you know, listen, I see, whenever I see people that have that kind of environment or people that write full time, you know, we can't. I can't help but feel jealous, envious, like whatever the emotion, the correct word is, I can't help it because I'm like, wow, that's really cool that you can do that, right? But most of us don't have that luxury, right? Most of us, you know, we know that writing, as much as we love it, you know, probably couldn't pay, you know, the utility bills right now and the gas bills. And so, you know, many of us need to work. full -time jobs or other jobs and we have to take care of children or elderly parents or whatnot and so you know we have to fit it in I wrote so I have a middle grade that's on submission and I wrote I wrote the first draft of that entirely at the beach on my phone on google docs and I think the entire first draft and I was so thankful for myself for doing that because otherwise I never would have penned it ever but obviously the revision The revision process then is much heavier. It's a heavier lift because the first draft was crap. But the story was there. The chapters were there. The outline was there. The characters were there. And once the characters start to come to life, I feel like it energizes you because you're like, wow. Because they start to become people. And that's like our weird creative brain when we create these worlds and these characters. They actually become real to us. And then we can't. put them away, right? Because then we have to give them a personality and we have to give them like works. And I think that energizes us. So I think for everybody listening to like, know that you're going to get it down, you're going to get it down in your phone and your notes. And you're just going to revise the heck out of it. You know, you just kind of have to embrace that process a little bit more than maybe you would have. Yeah. And you expect that,

00:20:47              BETH MCMULLEN

Yeah. And you expect that, that first draft to be a mess. And that's actually totally fine. Yeah, totally fine. Because then you have a draft. You have something. That's a huge win. You have a draft to work with. You cannot edit a blank page. Right. So in this whole journey, you said you're at your five -year anniversary with Little Press, which is amazing. So congratulations on that. What has been the biggest challenge that you've had to overcome to find success with the publishing house?

00:21:16              MICHELE MCAVOY

I think that the biggest challenge are the margins with books and educating people that Small presses just can't do it the same as the larger, right? And it's just the economy of scale and it's economics, right? And so when you think, and when I break things down to people about, you know, how much we'll make for a book and all the different hands that are in the pot, you know, they get it. So I think that's the biggest challenge is sort of educating people on little presses. And I think it's important to know what you're going into first. I think it's extremely important for smaller publishers to be 100 % transparent. And so I think I had to get over that insecurity at first of like, you know, we can only give like this much advance. And they'd be like, well, I'm like, well, I'm sorry. You know, at first I would be like trying to find the money. And then when I realized, well, I'm going to go out of business if I keep doing this, you know, like, you know, I mean, and right now we're still just like recycling money, like it's coming in and it's going on to books and, but we're paying people too. I said to somebody the other day, I said, you know, I may not be taking a big salary at all from Venice, but like I have a staff and they're getting paid and that's pretty cool. And like books are getting out there and that's cool too. And we're still in like this growth. We're still in sort of like, I think, a place of growth because we just moved from one distributor to another and we expect to sell more. But I think it's just educating on what, you know, small presses can do in terms of economies, which has been like sort of the biggest hurdle and getting over it, like getting over that for myself. Right. Not being self -conscious about that. Embracing business models.

00:23:13              LISA SCHMID

I mean, that's all good information to know. It's interesting because my first book was with a small press. And, you know, it was an amazing experience. I was with Jolly Fish. And it was, you know, and I'll never forget, somebody once said to me that, be happy that your first experience in publishing is with a small press. Because it's generally going to be a really good experience. And it kind of eases you in and shows you how it's supposed to be done. And I never really understood that. And then I understand it now. I have a big appreciation for small classes.

00:23:51              MICHELE MCAVOY

Yeah. And I always tell people, I say, you know, don't rule it out because it's a way to get in the business, right? And listen, I'm an author and a writer myself, independently of my publishing company. People say, well, why don't we just... publish all your own stuff and i'm like well because i didn't start the little press as a self -publishing mechanism i started it well i did right in the very very beginning but it's traditional just so i can funnel all my published titles through it that wasn't my plan and frankly some of my stuff doesn't even fit the catalog and well we're like right it's very like sdl and we don't do so much like heavy you know quieter stuff well what have you but i'm still looking for that big like personally i'm still looking for that big book deal right i have an agent he shot right in my middle so it's okay to do all of it it's okay to try for a big you know that's always what the agents do they try for the big and then they go for the media and they go to the small i don't think you should think of it as a consolation though because at the end of the day if they're doing a beautiful unless you don't like you have to do your research if you don't like what the publisher is putting out do not Sign with them. Look at the books that they put out. Because I've done that too. I'm like, oh, God, I wouldn't want my book to look like that, you know? Right. Oh, this is not for me. But if they do professional work and you get a deal and you didn't get a big five or a medium, like, don't think of it as a consolation. Think of it as like, this is your book's journey. This is your story's journey. And you're going to write another one. You're going to embrace it. You're going to have fun with it. And you're going to write another one.

00:25:30              LISA SCHMID

Well, and you said something earlier about kids don't care who the publisher is. They're not looking at that. All they care about is a good story. So I think sometimes when people get so caught up in, you know, oh, but they're small or mid -level press or whatever, it's like, you know what? If your goal is to write a story and get it in the hands of readers. you know, go there because they simply don't care. Like nobody looks there except for us maybe. And most of the time, I don't even, I'll immediately go to the acknowledgements and be like, who do I know? What's happening there? I care more about the acknowledgements in a book than I do the publisher. Or if I see something I like or I don't like, then I look at the publisher and go, okay, that's, you know, mental note there. But people, not everybody's in the industry like we are. So it's just, you're right. It's like if you're doing a quality book, that's what matters. That's the end game.

00:26:28              MICHELE MCAVOY

Yeah, I was at a book fair at a nerd camp once and I had a, I shared a table with somebody that was very well published, which is like tends to always be my MO, right? But this woman, I was, this was the beginning of my career. And I had two books and she was very well published. And my one book was selling. right like kids were coming up the older kids wanted a picture book and she was like wow like she was surprised right and i was like because hers weren't something as good as my one was but the secret was i had already like done a school visit at that i didn't tell her i was like well you know what It is what it is. The kids don't care. They wanted my book. They knew my story. I had already had a connection with them, you know? So I think at the end of the day, that's exactly it. And small presses can give you that opportunity. Yeah.

00:27:18              LISA SCHMID

Well, speaking of which, I've noticed because there was a long time I have a chapter book series and I kept telling my agent, I'm like, look at Little Press, you know, because I love your books. And you're always closed. She's like, they're closed. They're closed. So when are you open for submissions for all us angry writers who, I mean, not angry, I mean, enthusiastic. Let's use that word instead. Love it. Love your stuff. I want to know when you're open.

00:27:47              MICHELE MCAVOY

Yeah. That's an awesome question because I'm excited to tell everybody that we are like weirdly open because we're doing a pitch. We're doing a Twitter pitch for our fifth anniversary. And it's called TLP Pitch and everybody can go there and, you know, pitch their projects to us. All of our editors will be participating, including myself. You can find out more of it on our website, littlepresspublishing .com. And so it's a way for us to sort of open, but not. So when you open, you get a ton of stuff, right? And it's hard for small presses to really sift through that. I also get a lot of submissions through events that I do. So when I presented a CBWI, you know, part of the bonus is everybody at the class gets to submit for that month or whatever. So those are different ways that people get to submit directly to us at different events. But yeah, so the Twitter pitch is on March 20th. And it's going to be all day. And it's basically the same pitch rules as you typically would have in a pitch. I have to put some more rules up on the website because somebody just asked me like, how many can I pitch? And I thought, oh gosh, like I don't want somebody pitching like 20 projects, right? So I think we're going to limit it to like two projects a person, you know, pitching maybe three times during the day. So I have to like put those rules up there. But yeah, it's going to be, I'm really excited about it because not only is that going to help us like marketing wise to like get our name out there and get more so the names of my editors because we have editors now and I want them to get themselves out there. We have published a lot of books through pitches that we've gotten through other pitches that I've liked. You know, you do the heart thing, they send you the manuscripts. So we've acquired a good amount through pitches. I think it's a great time.

00:29:43              LISA SCHMID

So it sounds like you're not really ever going to be just open for pitches. It's more just like from conventions and conferences and Twitter pitches and pitch parties, which all makes sense because I can imagine we always hear how overwhelming, you know, just the inboxes get. And I have to say, we talk about, Beth and I talk about this all the time. They appreciate that. I would rather a publisher say, I can't handle, you know, a thousand. manuscripts coming in because we'll never get through it. So to me, you know, hats off to you for recognizing your limitations and knowing like, hey, you, if I meet you at a conference, go ahead and send it and reference this. I mean, that's pretty normal MO in this industry. So there are ways to get in to Little West. You just got to be looking for those opportunities. I think that's the, that's the answer we're looking for.

00:30:38              MICHELE MCAVOY

I think different different editors will open up at different times because they have different capacities. And I don't want to be I don't want it to ever be like a pay to play kind of a thing at first. So I don't want it to be like, well, you have to buy into this in order to submit like that's not the intention at all. We are, you know, we are particularly interested in getting chapter books. And so, but I fear opening because I'll get too many. So maybe you, you and I, Lisa, can talk offline. But, you know, I, so there's that. But yeah, I think some of my editors have opened up, but they just didn't get enough that they wanted. So then they closed. So I think my other editors probably will open for specific wishlist projects in the future. Oh, good.

00:31:30              LISA SCHMID

The Fitzparty is the place to be. You know, we've got, I'll go ahead and make sure I handle all the social media. And so I'll go ahead and post that. We're not on Twitter anymore, but we can let other people know who are still, we've got the waiting room, which is our Facebook private chat group for writers. And I'll go ahead and post that and let folks know that there is a pitch party and this is such a great opportunity for them. And then I'll also forward it and post it on our socials because this is a really good opportunity and I would love people to get in on it.

00:32:04              BETH MCMULLEN

Yeah, thank you. And it sounds like just people who really are interested in Little Press should just keep their eyes on the website for people who, I mean, for upcoming pitch parties, for editors who are opening. So we will make sure to make a note of that in the podcast notes for everybody. So Michelle, thank you so much for coming on the show and being here with us today and sharing all of your experiences. I know that our listeners are going to find this super helpful. So thank you again for making the time.

00:32:33              MICHELE MCAVOY

Yeah, thank you for having me. This was so much fun. I love talking about the company. I like the company more than myself. So this was a... It was so fun.

00:32:43              BETH MCMULLEN

Well, I mean, it's remarkable. We're very impressed from where we sit watching what you've done. And I think it's just, you're putting some really amazing titles out there into the world that maybe wouldn't have found a path otherwise. So it's a win for everybody. So listeners, remember you can find out more about Michelle by visiting our podcast notes and the blog at writerswithwrinkles .net. And I will put all of the links we've talked about. over the last half an hour in there so you can easily find them. And Lisa and I are back on April 14th with an Ask Beth and Lisa episode. So please see the podcast notes for how to send us your questions for that or use any of our social channels to submit the question. We will find them there. And until then, happy reading, writing, and listening.