May 20, 2024
Middle Grade Magic! Co Host Lisa Schmid Goes Deep with new novel Hart & Souls
This episode features co-host Lisa Schmid discussing her upcoming middle-grade novel "Hart & Souls." The focus is on the challenges of writing a second novel, known as the sophomore slump, and the unique pressures and expectations that come with it.
Key Discussion Points:
1. Introduction to "Hart & Souls"
- Lisa introduces her novel about Stix Hart, a sixth-grader dealing with anxiety from past bullying. He meets three ghosts with unresolved issues and helps them move on.
2. The Sophomore Slump
- Beth and Lisa discuss the difficulties of writing a second novel and the pressures that come with following up a debut success.
3. Inspiration Behind the Story
- Lisa shares a personal story about her son’s middle school experience and how an encounter with a troubled bully inspired "Hart & Souls."
4. Middle-Grade Writing
- The importance of making books accessible, fun, and educational without being preachy. Lisa balances serious issues with an engaging narrative.
5. Lessons from the First Novel
- Lisa reflects on the lessons learned from her debut, "Olly Oxley and the Ghost," and how they influenced her approach to her second novel.
6. Real-Life Issues in Fiction
- Addressing topics like bullying, anxiety, LGBTQ+ issues, parental abuse, and racism in middle-grade fiction. Lisa highlights the importance of reflecting real-life struggles in a relatable way.
7. Writing Process and Craft
- The challenges of creating multiple story arcs and weaving them together. Lisa emphasizes the importance of reading across genres to improve writing craft.
8. Advice for Aspiring Authors
- Tips for those starting their second novel, including changing the point of view to ensure distinct characters and stories.
This episode provides a deep dive into the creative process behind "Hart & Souls," highlighting the challenges and triumphs of writing a second novel. Lisa Schmid's insights offer valuable lessons for aspiring authors and middle-grade enthusiasts.
Listeners are encouraged to pre-order 'Hart & Souls' and attend Lisa's book launch on July 27th at Ruby's Books in Folsom, where she will be in conversation with Beth McMullen. Additionally, Lisa will be at the ALA conference in San Diego on June 29th and 30th, signing books and participating in a panel discussion.
Links Mentioned:
- Pre Order Hart & Souls
- Ruby's Books
- ALA Conference
Subscribe for updates, cheat sheets, news
Visit the Website
Twitter: @BethandLisaPod
Insta: @WritersWithWrinkles
Writers with Wrinkles Link Tree for more!
Threads: @WritersWithWrinkles
Insta: @WritersWithWrinkles
Bluesky: @bethandlisapod.bsky.social
Twitter: @BethandLisaPod
Support Writers With Wrinkles - become a subscriber
Email: Beth@BethMcMullenBooks.com
Writers with Wrinkles Link Tree for more!
Transcript
WEBVTT
00:00:00.100 --> 00:00:05.347
Hi friends, I'm Beth McMullen and I'm Lisa Schmid, and we're the co-hosts of Writers with Wrinkles.
00:00:05.347 --> 00:00:06.209
Welcome back.
00:00:06.209 --> 00:00:08.648
This is season three, episode 21.
00:00:08.648 --> 00:00:16.204
And today we are doing something extra special in that one of us and Tint, not me is in the hot seat, and that is Lisa.
00:00:16.204 --> 00:00:22.064
She has a new middle grade novel, heart and Souls, coming out in July, which we are super excited about here.
00:00:22.064 --> 00:00:32.201
Of course, if you want to see this absolutely gorgeous book, we'll post pictures of it on our socials.
00:00:32.222 --> 00:00:34.267
But also I've been thinking a lot about published authors and what we call the sophomore slump.
00:00:34.267 --> 00:00:37.801
We know many authors who publish a debut and think, yay, I'm in the club.
00:00:37.801 --> 00:00:43.634
But in many ways the second novel is harder to write and to publish.
00:00:43.634 --> 00:00:46.755
I remember being so surprised by this.
00:00:46.755 --> 00:00:49.746
They say that your first book sells your second.
00:00:49.746 --> 00:00:53.017
But what happens when you're past that debut glow?
00:00:53.017 --> 00:00:59.652
The sophomore novel comes with its own set of myths and pressures and intense expectations, yours and others.
00:00:59.652 --> 00:01:08.510
So whether you smashed it with your first book or simply learned valuable lessons from it, the second book is often seen as a proving ground for writers and for readers.
00:01:08.510 --> 00:01:15.965
So today we're putting these questions to Lisa, whose second novel is still very fresh in her mind and we're going to get some answers.
00:01:15.965 --> 00:01:16.968
Are you ready, lisa?
00:01:16.968 --> 00:01:26.632
I'm ready, okay, so before we jump into like the nitty gritty, I want you to take a minute and tell us all about the forthcoming novel.
00:01:27.480 --> 00:01:27.960
Thank you.
00:01:27.960 --> 00:01:30.326
I'm super excited, of course, about this novel.
00:01:30.326 --> 00:02:01.870
It's Heart and Souls and it's about young boy Sticks Heart, who is starting sixth grade, new middle school student, and he is dealing with some residual anxiety, or this lingering anxiety, over an incident that happened in third grade and it was a bullying incident, and it really it weighs heavily on his mind as he moves into this new school that's much bigger and has a lot more kids to deal with.
00:02:01.870 --> 00:02:20.710
And so as he enters his first day, he just happens to meet three new kids who all seem different in their own ways, but they turn out to be ghosts and they are stuck in middle school because they have unresolved issues.
00:02:20.710 --> 00:02:28.524
And these issues need to be resolved by Sticks because he's the only person who can see them to help them move on.
00:02:28.524 --> 00:02:38.752
And by helping them move on or by helping them resolve their issues, he resolves his own and of course he can he can move on himself.
00:02:40.181 --> 00:02:49.347
I I, of course, have read this book, so you know I'm I'm speaking from that point of view what I love, one of the many things I love about that.
00:02:49.347 --> 00:02:55.609
First of all, I love your writing is so accessible to the young people who are going to be reading this book.
00:02:55.609 --> 00:03:00.253
I know it's hard to read a middle grade book as an adult and not bring your adult baggage to it.
00:03:00.253 --> 00:03:12.429
But if you put yourself in the position of a 12 year old or a or a 10-year-old reading this book, it's so accessible to them, it's fun, it's funny, it's easy to read.
00:03:12.429 --> 00:03:25.662
This particular novel has a gorgeous set of illustrations throughout, so it's in that sweet spot not quite a graphic novel, but much more illustrated than a regular old middle grade novel, which I think kids really love.
00:03:25.662 --> 00:03:26.805
I love that about it.
00:03:27.447 --> 00:03:47.312
But I also feel like you deal with heavy, difficult, complicated topics in a very deft and smooth way so that you don't, as the reader, realize that you are being educated almost about this type of anxiety and the impact that it can have.
00:03:47.312 --> 00:03:55.443
When you look at the inciting incident in third grade for Styx, you're like oh yeah, okay, you know bullying happens, blah, blah, blah.
00:03:55.443 --> 00:04:08.847
But we understand the long kind of tendrils of the effect of that, by traveling through this experience with him and helping the ghost, which I think not all middle grade novels rise to this level.
00:04:08.847 --> 00:04:09.929
So I think it's.
00:04:09.929 --> 00:04:12.114
It's exceptional in that way.
00:04:12.681 --> 00:04:25.812
I also want to ask you a question, and this is really we're doing a little prep for when you go, you know, on tour and to conferences and to all the interviews that will be surrounding this book and its launch in July, you will be asked the following question.
00:04:25.812 --> 00:04:34.884
So I'm going to ask it first what is the little nugget or seed or moment that you were like, yeah, I got to write this book?
00:04:34.884 --> 00:04:36.951
What was the spark for Heart and Souls?
00:04:37.961 --> 00:04:39.423
It was a really interesting.
00:04:39.423 --> 00:04:41.048
It was an interesting moment.
00:04:41.048 --> 00:04:56.266
I was actually my son was in sixth grade and he had started, you know, he went from a small elementary school to a big middle school and it was overwhelming and he had his own set of anxiety that came with it.
00:04:56.266 --> 00:04:57.850
Of course, you know all they all do.
00:04:57.850 --> 00:05:09.872
You know all sixth graders do, cause you're like you know this is, this is a lot, but it just so happened there was a kid at this, at this middle school that was kind of like tormenting everybody.
00:05:09.872 --> 00:05:40.007
And then, you know not necessarily my son, but just like you know, you would sit down at like a soccer game and all the moms would be talking about this one kid and the stuff that he was doing was so like textbook bullying, you know smashing ketchup on somebody's head, headbutting him in the cafeteria, just like stuff that you're just like, wow, this guy is just out tormenting everybody and like all the kids were afraid of him, like what's this kid going to do?
00:05:40.007 --> 00:05:42.324
And I saw him.
00:05:42.324 --> 00:05:43.165
I knew who he was.
00:05:43.165 --> 00:05:47.185
You know that somebody had pointed him out to me one day and I was like, oh, there's that.
00:05:47.185 --> 00:05:48.288
You know, there's that kid.
00:05:48.288 --> 00:05:54.048
It's like terrorizing the middle school and I saw him at Target.
00:05:54.048 --> 00:06:00.824
I was there just find something for Ollie for his middle school experience, like a school dance or something.
00:06:01.266 --> 00:06:17.312
And as I was walking in the door I see this kid and he's pacing back and forth in front of like by the, where the shopping carts are, and he was crying and I could see he still had a school backpack on and that, you know, it was obvious to me what had happened.
00:06:17.312 --> 00:06:25.961
He hadn't been picked up at school and he had walked to target and so I went in and I kind of listened in on the call to make sure he was okay and he was crying.
00:06:25.961 --> 00:06:27.245
He was like where are you?
00:06:27.245 --> 00:06:28.668
I didn't know where else to go.
00:06:28.668 --> 00:06:30.031
I'm not allowed.
00:06:30.031 --> 00:06:31.903
You know, you can't stay on school grounds.
00:06:32.004 --> 00:06:45.214
And he was just scared and I was like, oh my God, you know, there is a backstory that we always, you know, in the moment of hearing about these kids, that we can forget, even though we know that there's something.
00:06:45.214 --> 00:06:50.031
And I've always told you know, my son, that if somebody is mean to you it has nothing to do with you.
00:06:50.031 --> 00:06:57.346
There is a struggle going on in their life and they're, you know, projecting it or because whatever is going on at home.
00:06:57.346 --> 00:07:00.689
And so it was just a really stark reminder of that.
00:07:00.689 --> 00:07:15.353
And so I was walking through the store, the whole, like the concept came to me, the title came to me right away, at my heart and souls, like I'm going to write a story about, like these three kids that are trapped in middle school, but I'm going to give a backstory.
00:07:16.240 --> 00:07:23.314
And this kid who, like, sparked this idea, he's going to be one of the main characters.
00:07:23.314 --> 00:07:26.839
He's a secondary character, but I want to give his backstory.
00:07:26.839 --> 00:07:32.940
And so then I had to come up with backstories for these two other kids that you know were going to be ghosts.
00:07:32.940 --> 00:07:41.526
But I, literally, by the time I got to the car, I kind of penciled it out in my phone what I was going to end or begin and end.
00:07:41.526 --> 00:07:46.603
I knew, and I always know, that I know the beginning and the end and that you know how the rest played beginning and the end and that you know how the rest played out.
00:07:46.603 --> 00:07:47.826
Was was a different.
00:07:47.826 --> 00:07:49.209
It's a different beast.
00:07:50.350 --> 00:07:53.221
That is something to be envied.
00:07:53.221 --> 00:08:05.862
I think that you, that you know the beginning and the end, most people are like I know what I'm writing toward, but I don't know where to start, or I have my beginning, but I don't know where I'm going.
00:08:05.862 --> 00:08:07.805
So I think that that must have made it.
00:08:07.805 --> 00:08:14.932
Actually, I know that you weren't always having fun writing this, but it makes the path a little clearer.
00:08:14.932 --> 00:08:17.019
Okay, so that's the book.
00:08:17.019 --> 00:08:19.084
Everybody, go pre-order it please.
00:08:19.084 --> 00:08:23.173
Right now, we'll even pause for 10 seconds for you to go and order the book.
00:08:23.173 --> 00:08:24.137
This is the pause.
00:08:24.137 --> 00:08:25.721
Okay, good, you're done.
00:08:25.721 --> 00:08:40.105
All right, what lessons did you learn writing Olly Oxley and the Ghost, which is your first middle grade novel that you applied to writing art and souls, because there are always lessons learned in that first book.
00:08:40.105 --> 00:08:45.505
And you say to yourself along the way okay, next time I'm not going to do this or that, or I'm going to do this other thing.
00:08:45.505 --> 00:08:48.753
What were those lessons that you learned between one and two?
00:08:49.801 --> 00:08:51.024
There was some big lessons.
00:08:51.024 --> 00:09:03.802
When I was writing Polyoxy and the Ghost, my son was in elementary school and he was very young and so I didn't have that like current middle grade kind of experience.
00:09:03.802 --> 00:09:10.325
I was still in the like kindergarten, first grade adorable, my God, he's so sweet and all the kids are so sweet.
00:09:10.325 --> 00:09:16.899
I only had my old experiences to deal with, to tap into, which were good.
00:09:16.899 --> 00:09:22.212
I wrote some of what I could remember, like those feelings and stuff.
00:09:22.212 --> 00:09:30.590
But I was also really afraid to because I was dealing, dealing with it from the perspective of like kind of through all these eyes.
00:09:30.590 --> 00:09:35.389
Like you know, he was a little kid, like I was around elementary school kids and so I was.
00:09:35.389 --> 00:09:37.101
I was afraid to kind of dig deep.
00:09:37.101 --> 00:09:38.086
You know what I mean.
00:09:38.086 --> 00:09:41.759
It was like a very lighthearted story, which was fine.
00:09:41.759 --> 00:09:46.240
You know it was perfect for that book because it's very much a lower middle grade.
00:09:46.842 --> 00:09:58.701
I remember in the first chapter I wrote something and it's about Olly Oxley's, about a kid who moves all the time and he's just really sick of moving and he's angry and you know he's not happy that.
00:09:58.701 --> 00:10:03.730
You know he's always like changing up schools and having to make new friends, changing up schools and having to make new friends.
00:10:03.730 --> 00:10:05.614
And one line I wrote was moving socks.
00:10:05.614 --> 00:10:13.341
And I sat there like do I want to say the word socks?
00:10:13.341 --> 00:10:18.673
Like I really toyed with it, like it was some horrible you know swear word that you know, my God, it's so shocking and I left it in.
00:10:19.240 --> 00:10:21.283
But I was still so uncomfortable with it.
00:10:21.283 --> 00:10:28.784
When I read that first chapter out loud to kids I always changed the word to stinks, like moving stinks.
00:10:28.784 --> 00:10:32.511
It was like that's where my brain was at Cause.
00:10:32.511 --> 00:10:45.272
My brain was like with Ollie in elementary school, and so I was afraid to you know, I just was afraid to go any further than that, and so I so I look back on that and laugh.
00:10:45.272 --> 00:10:55.256
You know now that I, you know, after being around middle school kids, I'm like, oh my God not to mention the high school kids where you're like.
00:10:55.397 --> 00:10:58.466
I am scandalized by what you're saying right now.
00:11:00.111 --> 00:11:12.248
I mean, I I'll never forget the first time I had, you know, all these middle school friends that you know they'd grown, they'd grown up around me, you know, and there was this one kid I don't want to say his name, but he was, they were.
00:11:12.248 --> 00:11:14.510
He was the really quiet kid and I was.
00:11:14.510 --> 00:11:22.890
He was in the back of my car and I was driving them to the first little middle school dance and he really spoke.
00:11:22.890 --> 00:11:34.371
I mean, he was so crying, shy, and then all of a sudden he's on his phone, they're looking at something, and the first word out of his mouth is the F-bomb and he's talking about some game.
00:11:34.371 --> 00:11:40.568
And I'm like, oh my God, he's wearing my car.
00:11:40.568 --> 00:11:41.793
So shocking to me.
00:11:41.793 --> 00:11:47.408
I was just like they had totally forgot that there was a parental unit driving them.
00:11:47.408 --> 00:11:55.833
They were so like consumed with their little game and I just that literally changed my whole perspective of, like middle school kids.
00:11:55.833 --> 00:12:03.076
I was like, okay, it's on, things are different, you can tell that between Olly Oxley and Heart and Souls.
00:12:03.197 --> 00:12:42.855
I think what you said about feeling like you had permission to go deeper into that middle school kid brain you can tell that because Olly Oxley I remember most about it and it's been a few years since I've read it is that it's funny, like you're laughing and it it is very light-hearted, like you said, like anybody can read it and get through and have a good experience, like it's fun, doesn't force you to look at things that are a little bit uncomfortable, perhaps where this one is looking at anxiety, which so many kids suffer from now, especially post pandemic, I think, definitely heightened that in school age kids.
00:12:42.855 --> 00:12:50.668
So, yeah, you can tell that you've done more work and you have more craft and those things.
00:12:50.668 --> 00:13:00.416
Let you do things that you couldn't do in Alioxy, which is super fun for the reader but also probably pretty good on the writing side, where you're like oh yeah, I got this.
00:13:00.416 --> 00:13:01.197
No big deal.
00:13:02.206 --> 00:13:02.706
Yeah, it was.
00:13:02.706 --> 00:13:03.448
It was fun.
00:13:03.448 --> 00:13:12.535
I mean I had I had basically four characters to like the backstories to and give like some really complex issues and I went there.
00:13:12.535 --> 00:13:18.996
I was like, you know, there's I, there's a lot there's, you know, a parent that dies.
00:13:18.996 --> 00:13:30.673
That, you know, impacts a child there's, you know there's LGBTQ issues there's, you know some parent that was a kind of abusive, there's racism there.
00:13:30.673 --> 00:13:39.432
You know, I I kind of really was just like taking and these are like everything I talked about I were things I had witnessed myself.
00:13:39.432 --> 00:13:40.655
Real life.
00:13:40.655 --> 00:13:42.792
You're reflecting a slice of real life.
00:13:42.792 --> 00:13:46.345
Yeah, I mean, I remember there was, you know, I used this in one scene.
00:13:47.368 --> 00:14:00.389
I was at a basketball game one time and there was two parents that they had the bizarre notion that their children were going to end up in the NBA and they were so just like abusive from the sidelines towards their kids.
00:14:00.389 --> 00:14:13.496
And I remember one time this guy, this dad, went up and grabbed his son by the ear off the kid in the middle of the court and dragged him to the side and was yelling at him about your you know, you'll never make the NBA playing like that.
00:14:13.496 --> 00:14:16.916
And I was just watching this and the kid was like 11.
00:14:16.916 --> 00:14:25.951
And I'm like what is happening and so is from a parent's point of view I saw things that were just shocking to my senses and my being.
00:14:25.951 --> 00:14:32.868
And seeing what kids are dealing with out there is just in in full view, was shocking.
00:14:32.868 --> 00:14:39.590
And I use that scene in my story because I'm like that is real life crap that these kids deal with.
00:14:39.590 --> 00:14:42.177
You know these intense situations.
00:14:42.840 --> 00:14:54.875
And then you know there was racism that I threw in there and I didn't, I didn't want to tell that story, I wasn't, I really didn't know how to touch on that one, but I threw it in there and there was.
00:14:54.875 --> 00:15:08.436
I went to a parent meeting at middle school and they were talking, you know all the parents in there, their kids were being targeted and being called immigrants and to go home.
00:15:08.436 --> 00:15:17.479
And you know there was there was like a big time, like after, like after the election, where you know racism was like open.
00:15:17.479 --> 00:15:29.673
It was so suddenly okay to like, not suddenly, but it was even more prevalent than it ever had been before and I was like all these I was talking to, all these parents and their kids were just being targeted and it was horrible.
00:15:29.673 --> 00:15:40.754
And so I threw that in there, and so I just I kept hearing real life situations that I was like I'm throwing it into this book and if anybody asked me to take it out, you know it would have been hard now.
00:15:41.557 --> 00:15:46.722
Yeah, but again I point back to what I said before about the way that you do it is.
00:15:46.722 --> 00:15:50.110
It's never being hit over the head, as in.
00:15:50.110 --> 00:15:53.577
I'm talking about an issue and you feel the author preaching to you.
00:15:53.577 --> 00:15:56.975
Do you know how you read that in some books, where you feel like the author's giving you a lecture?
00:15:56.975 --> 00:16:06.477
What Lisa does so well, and why you should all buy this book, is because it's woven in in such a natural way that it's just part of the story.
00:16:06.477 --> 00:16:13.835
It's part of the environment and you see and feel for the children who are experiencing the effects of this.
00:16:13.835 --> 00:16:30.327
It never feels preachy, which definitely happens in some middle grade books that I can think of a bunch off the top of my head where I feel like, okay, now I feel the author talking to me, rather than the storytelling itself, which you do exceptionally well in this book.
00:16:31.068 --> 00:16:31.669
So what?
00:16:31.669 --> 00:16:34.114
This is like my favorite question.
00:16:34.114 --> 00:16:42.471
So what were the challenges unique to writing a second novel that you did not expect?
00:16:42.471 --> 00:16:45.988
So you're sitting there writing Ali Oxley and you're like, yay, awesome.
00:16:45.988 --> 00:16:50.370
And then you get to Heart and Souls and you're like, wait a minute, this is not what I thought was going to happen.
00:16:50.370 --> 00:16:51.875
What were some of those challenges?
00:16:51.875 --> 00:16:52.416
Or one?
00:16:53.466 --> 00:16:57.996
And I just I feel bad for you because you've experienced them all with me along the road.
00:16:57.996 --> 00:17:05.127
There's not saying that everybody has one book in them, you know, and I you know whether that's true or not, I don't know.
00:17:05.127 --> 00:17:09.277
You know, I think everybody has a book idea that they want.
00:17:09.277 --> 00:17:11.628
You know that they have percolating in their brain.
00:17:11.628 --> 00:17:15.255
I mean, how many times have you has somebody said like, oh, I want to write this book?
00:17:15.255 --> 00:17:17.539
And you're like, okay, you know, it just is Right.
00:17:17.539 --> 00:17:20.054
You're like that's nice, yeah, that's nice.
00:17:21.204 --> 00:17:27.178
There's not many of us that actually sit down and do it, which is, you know, the crazy thing.
00:17:27.178 --> 00:17:33.287
And I think everybody has like their book of their hearts, like that one, that story that they just want.
00:17:33.287 --> 00:17:37.317
They feel compelled to sit down and just like put on paper.
00:17:37.317 --> 00:17:42.586
And you know, if it's something, it's tapping into a life experience, a trauma that we're working through.
00:17:42.586 --> 00:17:56.230
Like when I was writing, all honestly, I moved around all the time when I was a kid, so that was really easy for me to write a story about that and look through my angst and my anger, and I don't know if it really helped.
00:17:56.230 --> 00:18:03.500
Certainly, in the moment felt really good writing it, so I kind of tapped into that.
00:18:03.660 --> 00:18:20.369
You know that feeling and so I kind of knew like this I I built my story around that that you know trauma of my childhood, and so that was that story, and so when you come to the second book, you don't have that book of your heart anymore.
00:18:20.369 --> 00:18:27.575
It's like suddenly you have to find like a story just out there that you've never even conceptualized.
00:18:27.575 --> 00:18:29.607
It's not something you've thought about your whole life.
00:18:29.607 --> 00:18:35.309
It's like, oh my God, I have to like come up with an idea and that's really big.
00:18:35.309 --> 00:18:45.340
And I remember throwing some crazy teeth at you and I just like nothing was coming to me and I like it took me a while, like I have.
00:18:45.340 --> 00:19:02.220
So I have so much respect for authors who can just jump from story to story and that's why I don't and I know you get mad at me for saying this, but I don't think of myself as a real author, like I think of myself as somebody who's like just scrapping to like find a story and then that's called imposter syndrome.
00:19:02.279 --> 00:19:04.708
I know you do splash.
00:19:04.708 --> 00:19:06.531
You're a real author.
00:19:06.531 --> 00:19:10.939
I know it's hard for you to digest, but it's true.
00:19:11.786 --> 00:19:17.605
I know, and it's just one of those things like I don't have that ability to just jump from story to story.
00:19:17.605 --> 00:19:19.190
You know, just it's not.
00:19:19.190 --> 00:19:25.031
It's not how I work, it's not how I'm built, and so it took me a long time to find this story.
00:19:25.031 --> 00:19:29.625
But when it finally did, I was like, okay, I think I've got the story.
00:19:29.625 --> 00:19:41.175
And then I did the crazy thing of having, you know, four story arcs that I had to find a way to weave together and make, make it all make sense, like I don't know why I went so big and hard the second time.
00:19:42.405 --> 00:19:44.651
Go big, or go home, isn't that what they say?
00:19:45.092 --> 00:19:46.896
And it just it almost broke my brain.
00:19:46.896 --> 00:19:49.347
I'm like, how am I going to make this all work together?
00:19:49.347 --> 00:20:03.037
And my writing is very there's a lot of serendipity with the things, my process, you know, I'll throw something in and all of a sudden I'm just like, oh yeah, I can use that, you know, and it just kind of works itself out.
00:20:03.037 --> 00:20:22.875
I write chapter by chapter and it's it's still shocking to me that I was able to make all these characters come together and make sense, and make sense for Styx Hart, who's the main character at the end, and drive them to that final moment, which is where I wanted to end the story.
00:20:22.875 --> 00:20:38.828
So I think that's the biggest thing is like finding that second story is shockingly hard, you know, because, again, that first story is the story of your heart and then the second story is not the story of your heart.
00:20:38.909 --> 00:20:40.531
It's the story of your heart and soul.
00:20:40.531 --> 00:20:42.635
Is what you're trying to say.
00:20:42.635 --> 00:20:47.952
Yeah, nice, that was pretty good, right, and I'm not good at those wordplay things as you are.
00:20:47.952 --> 00:20:51.209
I think there's lots of truth in that.
00:20:51.209 --> 00:20:57.866
There's a pressure on the sophomore effort that you just didn't have when you're writing your first book.
00:20:57.866 --> 00:21:00.453
Because you're writing your first book free and unencumbered.
00:21:00.453 --> 00:21:03.011
For the most part, you haven't sold it.
00:21:03.011 --> 00:21:05.593
It can take five years, nobody cares.
00:21:05.593 --> 00:21:06.275
Do you know what I mean?
00:21:06.275 --> 00:21:08.713
You're very free in writing it.
00:21:08.825 --> 00:21:09.589
And then the second book.
00:21:09.589 --> 00:21:37.853
Suddenly you have these outside pressures, whether you're working on a deadline, or it was a two book deal and you're trying to fulfill that second book, or it's a sequel and you suddenly didn't realize you were going to be writing a sequel, and now it's all a big mess or whatever it is, these outside pressures on that novel, and it's not something that came from a moment of okay, I think I'm going to write a book and I think this is what it's going to be about, and you've been mulling it for however many years.
00:21:37.853 --> 00:21:39.736
It's intimidating.
00:21:39.736 --> 00:21:41.619
It's really intimidating.
00:21:42.125 --> 00:21:49.509
But it is intimidating and I there was a moment where I was like I don't think I have it in me, but then honestly I was.
00:21:49.509 --> 00:21:58.376
We were out someplace, I can't remember, and I'm like, but I just want to still keep hanging out with Beth and be like a writer person writing.
00:21:58.376 --> 00:22:00.462
I won't have like my writer friends.
00:22:00.462 --> 00:22:04.277
You know I have all these writer friends now and I'm like I still want to be part of the gang.
00:22:04.277 --> 00:22:06.567
I don't want to get kicked out of the club.
00:22:06.847 --> 00:22:14.105
I don't want to get kicked out, just write, lisa write that's a good bumper sticker, right Lisa write.
00:22:14.105 --> 00:22:16.932
I like it and it was hard.
00:22:16.932 --> 00:22:17.593
It was hard.
00:22:17.593 --> 00:22:23.082
I remember you halfway through just going, ah, I don't want to do this anymore, and you know.
00:22:23.082 --> 00:22:35.255
And then you had to give me the pep talk and and then I I dug my way out and got through it, but I think you, you start relying in your second book more on craft as in.
00:22:35.494 --> 00:22:37.738
I know how to make this happen.
00:22:37.738 --> 00:22:54.913
I might not feel it in the same visceral way that I did with my first book, but I know how to get from point A to point B, because I've done all this practice and I've done all this writing and now I have an understanding of what needs to be the foundation of this effort.
00:22:54.913 --> 00:23:00.781
So I think that changes from book one to two, three, four, changes from book one to two, three, four, et cetera.
00:23:00.781 --> 00:23:08.830
I'm on book 11 and I still am like what am I doing?
00:23:08.830 --> 00:23:11.075
I don't, you know, I mean, I don't know that that feeling ever goes away after book one.
00:23:11.095 --> 00:23:12.617
All the rest of them are a little shocking.
00:23:12.617 --> 00:23:18.798
So we kind of answered this a little bit, but I want to, I want to put the question to you anyway.
00:23:18.798 --> 00:23:25.574
So did you feel more freedom or more constrained in book two?
00:23:25.574 --> 00:23:31.153
Some of these reasons we talked about already in that, you know, you feel like I have to keep doing this.
00:23:31.153 --> 00:23:37.413
I've done it once, but I don't have that story that I am extremely passionate about or whatever.
00:23:37.413 --> 00:23:38.415
So what did you?
00:23:38.415 --> 00:23:40.881
How would you answer that as?
00:23:40.941 --> 00:23:43.932
far as constraints, I just I had zero constraints.
00:23:43.932 --> 00:23:50.855
I was in that sense of like I'm throwing everything at this book and I'm really.
00:23:50.855 --> 00:24:19.049
I'm like you, I don't like books that feel preachy and you can, like you said, you can feel it, and so I didn't want to pull that back at all, and so I I just was like I'm putting it all in there and if somebody doesn't like it, and if a reader doesn't like it, or if there's, you know, we have all that book banding going on and all that nonsense, and I was like I just don't care, like I the I don't care hat was on my head the whole time.
00:24:19.049 --> 00:24:33.510
I was like I am throwing it in there and if anybody's offended, I do not care, because these kids need to hear stories and they need it to be told in a way that is relatable and that's.
00:24:33.672 --> 00:24:37.981
You know, whenever I'm writing, I'm always just trying to think like, does this sound preachy?
00:24:37.981 --> 00:24:39.455
Would I be irritated?
00:24:39.455 --> 00:24:39.990
Like?
00:24:39.990 --> 00:24:43.618
There's times when I'm reading a book, I'm like I'm irritated by this and I'm like that's.
00:24:43.618 --> 00:24:49.784
You know, that's my biggest thing, and so I think I just there is a freedom and it's just.
00:24:49.784 --> 00:24:51.990
You know, if I don't get, if it doesn't get published.
00:24:51.990 --> 00:24:52.791
It doesn't get published.
00:24:52.791 --> 00:25:00.382
You know, I just kind of had that attitude of like c'est la vie, let's, let's do this Well it's writing without fear.
00:25:00.843 --> 00:25:02.164
Yeah, you're just.
00:25:02.164 --> 00:25:10.624
You know going for it and telling the story you want to tell and not worrying about who's going to be upset by this or concerned like this.
00:25:10.624 --> 00:25:16.183
You know being respectful of the things that we want to pay attention to creating authentic characters who are.
00:25:16.183 --> 00:25:21.257
You know who makes sense in the world that you're putting them into and all of those things, but not worrying about.
00:25:21.257 --> 00:25:23.923
You know who makes sense in the world that you're putting them into and all of those things, but not worrying about.
00:25:23.923 --> 00:25:29.737
You know some parent in some place where book banning is all the rage is going to get upset because you're not writing for that person.
00:25:29.737 --> 00:25:32.371
Yeah, I don't care, I think that's very.
00:25:32.833 --> 00:25:36.085
I think that's very healthy and listeners should all be taking notes.
00:00:00.100 --> 00:00:05.347
00:00:05.347 --> 00:00:06.209
00:00:06.209 --> 00:00:08.648
00:00:08.648 --> 00:00:16.204
00:00:16.204 --> 00:00:22.064
00:00:22.064 --> 00:00:32.201
00:00:32.222 --> 00:00:34.267
00:00:34.267 --> 00:00:37.801
00:00:37.801 --> 00:00:43.634
00:00:43.634 --> 00:00:46.755
00:00:46.755 --> 00:00:49.746
00:00:49.746 --> 00:00:53.017
00:00:53.017 --> 00:00:59.652
00:00:59.652 --> 00:01:08.510
00:01:08.510 --> 00:01:15.965
00:01:15.965 --> 00:01:16.968
00:01:16.968 --> 00:01:26.632
00:01:27.480 --> 00:01:27.960
00:01:27.960 --> 00:01:30.326
00:01:30.326 --> 00:02:01.870
00:02:01.870 --> 00:02:20.710
00:02:20.710 --> 00:02:28.524
00:02:28.524 --> 00:02:38.752
00:02:40.181 --> 00:02:49.347
00:02:49.347 --> 00:02:55.609
00:02:55.609 --> 00:03:00.253
00:03:00.253 --> 00:03:12.429
00:03:12.429 --> 00:03:25.662
00:03:25.662 --> 00:03:26.805
00:03:27.447 --> 00:03:47.312
00:03:47.312 --> 00:03:55.443
00:03:55.443 --> 00:04:08.847
00:04:08.847 --> 00:04:09.929
00:04:09.929 --> 00:04:12.114
00:04:12.681 --> 00:04:25.812
00:04:25.812 --> 00:04:34.884
00:04:34.884 --> 00:04:36.951
00:04:37.961 --> 00:04:39.423
00:04:39.423 --> 00:04:41.048
00:04:41.048 --> 00:04:56.266
00:04:56.266 --> 00:04:57.850
00:04:57.850 --> 00:05:09.872
00:05:09.872 --> 00:05:40.007
00:05:40.007 --> 00:05:42.324
00:05:42.324 --> 00:05:43.165
00:05:43.165 --> 00:05:47.185
00:05:47.185 --> 00:05:48.288
00:05:48.288 --> 00:05:54.048
00:05:54.048 --> 00:06:00.824
00:06:01.266 --> 00:06:17.312
00:06:17.312 --> 00:06:25.961
00:06:25.961 --> 00:06:27.245
00:06:27.245 --> 00:06:28.668
00:06:28.668 --> 00:06:30.031
00:06:30.031 --> 00:06:31.903
00:06:32.004 --> 00:06:45.214
00:06:45.214 --> 00:06:50.031
00:06:50.031 --> 00:06:57.346
00:06:57.346 --> 00:07:00.689
00:07:00.689 --> 00:07:15.353
00:07:16.240 --> 00:07:23.314
00:07:23.314 --> 00:07:26.839
00:07:26.839 --> 00:07:32.940
00:07:32.940 --> 00:07:41.526
00:07:41.526 --> 00:07:46.603
00:07:46.603 --> 00:07:47.826
00:07:47.826 --> 00:07:49.209
00:07:50.350 --> 00:07:53.221
00:07:53.221 --> 00:08:05.862
00:08:05.862 --> 00:08:07.805
00:08:07.805 --> 00:08:14.932
00:08:14.932 --> 00:08:17.019
00:08:17.019 --> 00:08:19.084
00:08:19.084 --> 00:08:23.173
00:08:23.173 --> 00:08:24.137
00:08:24.137 --> 00:08:25.721
00:08:25.721 --> 00:08:40.105
00:08:40.105 --> 00:08:45.505
00:08:45.505 --> 00:08:48.753
00:08:49.801 --> 00:08:51.024
00:08:51.024 --> 00:09:03.802
00:09:03.802 --> 00:09:10.325
00:09:10.325 --> 00:09:16.899
00:09:16.899 --> 00:09:22.212
00:09:22.212 --> 00:09:30.590
00:09:30.590 --> 00:09:35.389
00:09:35.389 --> 00:09:37.101
00:09:37.101 --> 00:09:38.086
00:09:38.086 --> 00:09:41.759
00:09:41.759 --> 00:09:46.240
00:09:46.842 --> 00:09:58.701
00:09:58.701 --> 00:10:03.730
00:10:03.730 --> 00:10:05.614
00:10:05.614 --> 00:10:13.341
00:10:13.341 --> 00:10:18.673
00:10:19.240 --> 00:10:21.283
00:10:21.283 --> 00:10:28.784
00:10:28.784 --> 00:10:32.511
00:10:32.511 --> 00:10:45.272
00:10:45.272 --> 00:10:55.256
00:10:55.397 --> 00:10:58.466
00:11:00.111 --> 00:11:12.248
00:11:12.248 --> 00:11:14.510
00:11:14.510 --> 00:11:22.890
00:11:22.890 --> 00:11:34.371
00:11:34.371 --> 00:11:40.568
00:11:40.568 --> 00:11:41.793
00:11:41.793 --> 00:11:47.408
00:11:47.408 --> 00:11:55.833
00:11:55.833 --> 00:12:03.076
00:12:03.197 --> 00:12:42.855
00:12:42.855 --> 00:12:50.668
00:12:50.668 --> 00:13:00.416
00:13:00.416 --> 00:13:01.197
00:13:02.206 --> 00:13:02.706
00:13:02.706 --> 00:13:03.448
00:13:03.448 --> 00:13:12.535
00:13:12.535 --> 00:13:18.996
00:13:18.996 --> 00:13:30.673
00:13:30.673 --> 00:13:39.432
00:13:39.432 --> 00:13:40.655
00:13:40.655 --> 00:13:42.792
00:13:42.792 --> 00:13:46.345
00:13:47.368 --> 00:14:00.389
00:14:00.389 --> 00:14:13.496
00:14:13.496 --> 00:14:16.916
00:14:16.916 --> 00:14:25.951
00:14:25.951 --> 00:14:32.868
00:14:32.868 --> 00:14:39.590
00:14:39.590 --> 00:14:42.177
00:14:42.840 --> 00:14:54.875
00:14:54.875 --> 00:15:08.436
00:15:08.436 --> 00:15:17.479
00:15:17.479 --> 00:15:29.673
00:15:29.673 --> 00:15:40.754
00:15:41.557 --> 00:15:46.722
00:15:46.722 --> 00:15:50.110
00:15:50.110 --> 00:15:53.577
00:15:53.577 --> 00:15:56.975
00:15:56.975 --> 00:16:06.477
00:16:06.477 --> 00:16:13.835
00:16:13.835 --> 00:16:30.327
00:16:31.068 --> 00:16:31.669
00:16:31.669 --> 00:16:34.114
00:16:34.114 --> 00:16:42.471
00:16:42.471 --> 00:16:45.988
00:16:45.988 --> 00:16:50.370
00:16:50.370 --> 00:16:51.875
00:16:51.875 --> 00:16:52.416
00:16:53.466 --> 00:16:57.996
00:16:57.996 --> 00:17:05.127
00:17:05.127 --> 00:17:09.277
00:17:09.277 --> 00:17:11.628
00:17:11.628 --> 00:17:15.255
00:17:15.255 --> 00:17:17.539
00:17:17.539 --> 00:17:20.054
00:17:21.204 --> 00:17:27.178
00:17:27.178 --> 00:17:33.287
00:17:33.287 --> 00:17:37.317
00:17:37.317 --> 00:17:42.586
00:17:42.586 --> 00:17:56.230
00:17:56.230 --> 00:18:03.500
00:18:03.660 --> 00:18:20.369
00:18:20.369 --> 00:18:27.575
00:18:27.575 --> 00:18:29.607
00:18:29.607 --> 00:18:35.309
00:18:35.309 --> 00:18:45.340
00:18:45.340 --> 00:19:02.220
00:19:02.279 --> 00:19:04.708
00:19:04.708 --> 00:19:06.531
00:19:06.531 --> 00:19:10.939
00:19:11.786 --> 00:19:17.605
00:19:17.605 --> 00:19:19.190
00:19:19.190 --> 00:19:25.031
00:19:25.031 --> 00:19:29.625
00:19:29.625 --> 00:19:41.175
00:19:42.405 --> 00:19:44.651
00:19:45.092 --> 00:19:46.896
00:19:46.896 --> 00:19:49.347
00:19:49.347 --> 00:20:03.037
00:20:03.037 --> 00:20:22.875
00:20:22.875 --> 00:20:38.828
00:20:38.909 --> 00:20:40.531
00:20:40.531 --> 00:20:42.635
00:20:42.635 --> 00:20:47.952
00:20:47.952 --> 00:20:51.209
00:20:51.209 --> 00:20:57.866
00:20:57.866 --> 00:21:00.453
00:21:00.453 --> 00:21:03.011
00:21:03.011 --> 00:21:05.593
00:21:05.593 --> 00:21:06.275
00:21:06.275 --> 00:21:08.713
00:21:08.825 --> 00:21:09.589
00:21:09.589 --> 00:21:37.853
00:21:37.853 --> 00:21:39.736
00:21:39.736 --> 00:21:41.619
00:21:42.125 --> 00:21:49.509
00:21:49.509 --> 00:21:58.376
00:21:58.376 --> 00:22:00.462
00:22:00.462 --> 00:22:04.277
00:22:04.277 --> 00:22:06.567
00:22:06.847 --> 00:22:14.105
00:22:14.105 --> 00:22:16.932
00:22:16.932 --> 00:22:17.593
00:22:17.593 --> 00:22:23.082
00:22:23.082 --> 00:22:35.255
00:22:35.494 --> 00:22:37.738
00:22:37.738 --> 00:22:54.913
00:22:54.913 --> 00:23:00.781
00:23:00.781 --> 00:23:08.830
00:23:08.830 --> 00:23:11.075
00:23:11.095 --> 00:23:12.617
00:23:12.617 --> 00:23:18.798
00:23:18.798 --> 00:23:25.574
00:23:25.574 --> 00:23:31.153
00:23:31.153 --> 00:23:37.413
00:23:37.413 --> 00:23:38.415
00:23:38.415 --> 00:23:40.881
00:23:40.941 --> 00:23:43.932
00:23:43.932 --> 00:23:50.855
00:23:50.855 --> 00:24:19.049
00:24:19.049 --> 00:24:33.510
00:24:33.672 --> 00:24:37.981
00:24:37.981 --> 00:24:39.455
00:24:39.455 --> 00:24:39.990
00:24:39.990 --> 00:24:43.618
00:24:43.618 --> 00:24:49.784
00:24:49.784 --> 00:24:51.990
00:24:51.990 --> 00:24:52.791
00:24:52.791 --> 00:25:00.382
00:25:00.843 --> 00:25:02.164
00:25:02.164 --> 00:25:10.624
00:25:10.624 --> 00:25:16.183
00:25:16.183 --> 00:25:21.257
00:25:21.257 --> 00:25:23.923
00:25:23.923 --> 00:25:29.737
00:25:29.737 --> 00:25:32.371
00:25:32.833 --> 00:25:36.085