Transcript
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Hi friends, I'm Beth McMullen and I'm Lisa Schmid, and we're the co-hosts of Writers with Wrinkles.
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This is season three, episode 15.
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And today we're talking about imposter syndrome.
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But before we jump into that, we wanna talk a little bit about our picture book journey, the big picture and where we're at, and to beautifully illustrate exactly where we are in our process, lisa has a fun story for you, you know what?
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I have three projects out on sub right now, which is which is like a mental breakdown right there.
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In a nutshell, I am a volcano of rejection waiting to erupt.
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No no, no, you are.
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I mean okay For purposes of the picture book not to tell people the ending.
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Yes, rejection, but the other stuff, no.
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I refuse to accept it, so I am waiting.
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There's one big one that I'm particularly concerned about that I'm waiting on, and last night I dreamt that I received a rejection via email with full color illustrations to drive the point home of how much they did not want my book.
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My God, I feel like that should be a graphic novel right there for adults.
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I was sad but at the same time, equally impressed.
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I was like, wow, they really did not like my book that they created this beautiful illustration I mean, it was full colors and my dream.
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And I was like, wow, that's a really pretty rejection.
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And then I immediately texted my agent, leslie, and I'm like, just FYI, if they do send me a rejection, I expect it to come fully illustrated.
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So in the dream, were you thinking to yourself Okay, wow, this is pretty amazing, bummer, they rejected me.
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Were you even able to process the rejection?
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Because they had dazzled you with full color illustrations, like you were, like they had written you a graphic novel.
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It was gorgeous.
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And I just remember thinking, oh my gosh, this is gorgeous.
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And I was kind of reading through it.
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And then I got to the sad ending and I was like, oh, I didn't want it so.
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And then I literally just then I woke up and I was really sad.
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And then, to top it off, I opened my email like minutes, they always on my phone.
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I'm like, oh, I just need to like, read something, to, like, you know, get my mind off this horrible dream.
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And I woke up and looked at your email and we were rejected on the question box.
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So it's like I'm a prophet.
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Okay, so now we're going to use Lisa as the magic eight ball Whenever we have a really pressing question.
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We're just going to ask her to tell us what's going to happen, because, yeah, the timing of the dream followed by the rejection was pretty funny.
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That is our second rejection.
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You know we have a long way to go, with many more rejections in the future, or not, maybe not but thus far we are 0 for 2.
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Like with the magic eight balls, you shake them and then they kind of it kind of rolls around.
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So what I can do is.
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I can just shake my head a bunch.
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Just shake your head around like you're a dog with a toy and then tell us what you think.
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My eyes roll back into my head.
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That means we're getting rejected.
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That is an image worth illustrating.
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Right there, You're sitting there in your chair and actually, the way that I see you right now, you're all backlit by the sun, so you look like some sort of deity.
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So maybe this is what your future is.
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Desperate writers come to you.
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They shake you up like you know, like shaking baby syndrome for adults and then you tell them what you think.
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So, listeners, if you have a sub out, give me a call and I'll shake my head and see what happens.
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Send us an email, send us your question and we'll ask the magic Lisa 8-ball.
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Okay, this is what rejection, or thoughts of rejection, does to your head.
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It makes you loopy, but okay.
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So that's our picture book update.
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But it's also a good segue into talking about imposter syndrome, because you are a published author.
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You have a book out, you have another book out and this is your third book in the same genre that you are waiting for a response on, and yet you still feel like, oh, hell, no, this is never going to happen.
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Right, and that is a perfect definition of imposter syndrome.
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So I looked it up and this is what I got as a definition.
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It's the internal experience of believing that you are not as competent as others perceive you to be.
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In writers, this can manifest as doubting your talent, fearing exposure as a fraud and attributing success to luck.
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I also want to say that, just anecdotally, I feel like women are much more likely to say, oh, it was just dumb luck.
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Women are much more likely to say, oh, it was just dumb luck, rather than say, you know what?
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I worked my ass off and I got a result.
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So Lisa is experiencing imposter syndrome in real time.
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As we're talking about this, I feel like I live in imposter syndrome all the time.
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I have little moments where I come out of it, but it's pretty infrequent.
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I'm right there with you.
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I feel like I am, and I say this all the time and it's horrible.
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I beat myself up.
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I think I'm a half.
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I don't like if anybody, if my editors like this is a tight story.
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I just I love you know, you're writing this, that and I'm like whatever.
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Why are you lying to me?
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You're a liar, like that's what's going on in my head.
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Like why are they lying?
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Like, why are they like, what's wrong with that person?
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It's like I can't accept a compliment, I don't believe it, and like right now I'm not waiting for a book offer or a book deal, I'm waiting for the rejection so I can get it out of the way and focus on my next move.
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And that's what this imposter syndrome right there in a nutshell, oh, totally In a nutshell, and I feel like most writers experience it, and very famous writers experience it too.
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You know, just Google it and you will find stories of very well-known people saying, yeah, I have 25 bestsellers, but I still think like I'm kind of, you know, a fraud.
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It happens just to everybody at some point.
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And instead of you know, you're constantly trying to talk yourself out of it, right?
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So what causes imposter syndrome?
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Well, you know, I mean I'm sure there's a million different explanations for what causes.
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It's probably very individual, but some of the things that are unique to writing is the general isolation in which we work and the constant self-evaluation and the hyper, hyper competitive nature of our profession Cannot stress that enough.
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I mean, if you look at the numbers of people who aspire to be published and those who get published, it's pretty dramatic.
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And I think all of those things feed into that loop of telling yourself you stink and there's no way and you're alone and your head just kind of runs away with you and your like self control.
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You know, it's funny because I don't when I first started out writing, I felt more confident saying I'm a writer, Like when I wasn't published, when I didn't you know, when I didn't know any better, when I didn't you know, I was like I'm a writer, I'm a writer, you know.
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And then all of a sudden, like I'm published, and now I just feel like I'm a fake and that I'm this big phony and I don't think, you know, I view myself as invisible out in the literary world.
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And it's weird about this.
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Like I feel that way all the time.
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I'm like, you know, I'm over here and I'm like waving my hands and I'm like, hello, I'm here, and I just feel like I don't even deserve a seat at the table, which is it's horrible, you know, and it's like you want to get rid of that feeling.
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It is horrible and it doesn't reflect reality.
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I think the gulf between reality and what we perceive is really big.
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Now look at your case.
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You've had multiple successes and yet you're still saying to yourself oh no, no, no, this is ridiculous, I'm not this person.
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I mean, I feel like when people ask me for advice about writing, I always have that moment where I'm like wait, excuse me, why are you asking?
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Why are you asking me?
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I don't know, I don't, and I think too.
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It's also there is, and this is definitely for other aspects of life as well.
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There's that social media impact that is, you know, fairly new in the last, however many years, where you are seeing curated, lovely versions of people's lives, writers' lives and if you're an author, you're following a lot of people in the business writers, agents, publishers, et cetera.
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So you're getting a lot of input from that universe and most of it is beautifully curated and lovely.
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And these success stories, one after another after another.
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You're constantly congratulating people over and over on awards and bestsellers and book deals, and enough of that.
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Despite any success you might be having, you start to feel like whatever you're doing is paling in comparison, and that has a huge emotional impact.
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It feeds into this imposter syndrome where you're thinking well, these people are.
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Have it really dialed in?
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What is wrong with me?
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You know it's funny that you mentioned that this is like another one of the therapy sessions for Lisa.
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Well, you and me both, babe.
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When I first started doing this like I said I was I felt very confident in the fact that I was a writer, and it wasn't until I was on social media, which I do love.
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You know, it's a double edged sword to me.
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Like I love it, like I actually still like Twitter, I like engaging with other writers.
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I just did the MG book chat on Monday.
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I love doing that kind of stuff and I love celebrating authors and writers and people that are, you know, the very beginning.
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Like I love celebrating the whole thing.
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But at the same time, I started feeling less and less as I started seeing, just feeling like I'll never be spitting out a book every year.
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Right, like you're not a three book a year person.
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No, no.
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And then when you see people doing that or you know you just sometimes you just it, just it can really chip away at your, at your psyche and I.
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So I can see how that affects you when you're in it.
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Also, you're kind of expected to be on social media because that's kind of where you need to be, but at the same time it's diminished.
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It can be diminishing, and so I can see how that's chipped away at me.
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I think that is the exact right word.
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You come away feeling diminished rather than feeling uplifted, you feel less, and that's super hard.
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I have this example outside of writing that I sometimes think about.
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So my daughter, who's a junior in high school, you know, announced a year or so ago that she really wanted to play division one lacrosse in college and she's a great player.
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And so, you know, we were like, okay, well, we'll, you know, go on this journey and see where it ends.
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There's, of course, again super competitive, really high achieving, high skilled kids all vying for very, very few spots.
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And I remember the first big elite tournament that I took her to, and this was somewhere back East, and we pulled into the parking lot with a thousand other cars and I got out of the car and there were just thousands of players all vying for the exact same tiny little pool of offers from these high level schools.
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And I literally stopped breathing, like I was standing, you know, and she was like totally confident, whatever, I'm good, getting her stuff out, getting ready to go off to the field, and I'm standing there by the car like trying to catch my breath, because it was a perfect illustration of the odds being so great that you're ever going to get the thing that you want, and I think about that sometimes when I'm writing.
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I'm like you know, if you had taken all of those players and turn them all into manuscripts?
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That's kind of what we're doing, except we don't see it.
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You know it's out there and the only place you do see it is social media, and on social media you see only the success.
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You don't see the people who have been trying and trying and trying and have not gotten to where they want to go.
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So I think you need to keep in mind when you're on social media that first of all, keep an awareness of what you feel like.
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So if you feel like your feelings are being negatively impacted, you stop or you limit or you find some strategy to deal with that.
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But also remember you're only getting a tiny, tiny little picture of the whole big scene.
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You know you're getting a tiny little bit of what is real and I think you know try to keep that in mind when you're going through.
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And you know you're congratulating your friends and your fellow authors and trying to lift people up.
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Just remember that you're not seeing everything.
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You're seeing a very small slice of the pie, so to speak.
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It's true, and people curate what they put on social media.
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I mean for the most part, especially if you are an author that's staying on brand Like I don't you author that's staying on brand Like I don't.
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You know, I stay on brand Like.
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I don't really talk about like, although today I did post my failure dream.
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Well, that's not.
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That's that is having to do with writing, like you're not going to talk about something that's totally outside of the universe of publishing and writing and whatnot.
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Yeah, but you don't, you don't a lot of times, you don't see all the icky parts that they're also dealing with.
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No, I mean, for example, I'm not gonna put an image of what I look like right now.
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I literally got off my Peloton bike 20 minutes ago.
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My hair is sticking straight up in the air, I'm hot and sweaty.
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I would never put that on because, first of all, I don't need to share that and, second of all, it's not the image that we're all trying to project.
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We're trying to project the best part of what we're experiencing.
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So, again, I think just remembering that it's all curated and selected and, you know, enhanced is important.
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Yes, it's like.
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Who said this?
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I think this was one of our editors that we had on recently who said you cannot compare your manuscript to a finished book that's on the shelf because that book has gone through multiple edits and copy edits and revisions and blah, blah, blah.
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So it's like apples to oranges.
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So comparing yourself to somebody who is working really hard to project a certain image on social media is, you know, of course you're always going to come in feeling like less.
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Yeah, and that's another thing.
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It's just there's.
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You know, if there's somebody that you're following that you you're, they're not making you feel good like with whatever they're posting you're posting, you just mute them.
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You have to unfollow them if you don't want to just mute them, so that you don't take a break yeah, because there's, you know, there's certain people I'm like, oh, you make me feel bad or you were mean to me in person, but I'm gonna.
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We both know who that is.
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Yes, we do, so why I just muted that person?
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Because I'm like you make me feel bad.
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Just remembering how you treated me like makes me feel less than and so I'm like I will mute you.
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And remember you have control over it.
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It's not being forced on you.
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So if you need a break from somebody, and maybe that break is only 30 days and when you come back you're like I'm good now, but you have control, you are in the driver's seat of what you're consuming from social media as far as writing and publishing et cetera goes.
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So make sure you use that power to filter stuff out that is getting in your head Because, honestly, that all feeds into this imposter syndrome, and imposter syndrome happens at every stage.
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So aspiring writers who are taking their first steps, published authors obviously, Lisa and I both have our own personal experience with this.
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I can't think of anybody I know who's never had a moment of self-doubt.
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So it happens, no matter where you are in the process, beginning, established, whatever, you're gonna have the same sort of feelings.
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Well, and it's a lot.
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It's a self-talk.
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You know, if you're, I think, when you're starting to feel like, okay, I'm not supposed to be here, I'm a bad writer, and it's hard to preach about this because I, I, this is replays in my mind all the time, every time I sit down.
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But if you focus on the writing and then when you start feeling good about yourself again, you know it's like once you, even if it's just like, you know a draft, that's like kind of messy or whatever.
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But if you just like, if you find yourself having that self-talk that's negative, just go right back to the writing, because the writing is where your happy place is and that's where you're going to find your confidence.
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And that's what I tried to do.
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I'm having a bad moment, like, just remember why you started it.
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It's for the love of writing, and you know.
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Dive right back into it and try not to let that self-talk consume you, not to let that self-talk consume you.
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Very wise, wise words that everybody should heed.
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You have to find a way to shut the noise down.
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So there are strategies to shut the noise down, to overcome imposter syndrome, to make that little negative voice in your head go away, and some of those this one I like a lot, which is setting realistic, achievable goals, so something that you can get done and check off, and those little goals.
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Achieving those little goals, just like Lisa just said, helps you build your confidence, and the more confidence you have, the less likely it is that this noise out there is going to bother you.
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So pick something like I'm going to write 500 words a day this week and then you get to the end of the week and you've done it and you're like, huh, I can do that.
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So the next challenge is not as scary because you've gotten a little bit of confidence from achieving that first goal.
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Yeah, and I think, also looking at different aspects of writing and writing community, you need to surround yourself with people who support you in a constructive way.
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You know both in.
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You know your personal life.
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If you're sharing that, oh hey, I'm a writer.
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And if you have somebody that's like, oh, you'll never be able to do that, or whatever you need to get like, remove that person, we don't need those people.
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The other thing is like if you have critique partners or people in your writing community.
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I had somebody in the beginning that was not very constructive and not helpful and it made me feel bad whenever I like engaged with them and so I just, you know, I kind of disconnected myself because they made me feel bad as a writer and I wanted to go back to my happy place thinking I could do this, and that was like I said in the beginning.
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So I think it's really important to find a writing group that is constructive and helpful, not destructive to your mental well-being.
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Do you know what I mean?
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Yes, I do.
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And that community, that supportive community that's going to give you feedback that is helpful, that will help you write a better produce, a better manuscript, rather than the feedback that feels personal and the kind of stuff that you're going to take to heart and make you feel bad.
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It is a very fine line and when you encounter those people who you come away feeling defeated or deflated again, it's within your control to step away from them for a time or change the relationship.
00:19:29,557 --> 00:19:35,935
Where it's not about this could be somebody that you dearly love, but they're not a good critique partner, so you stop doing the critiquing with them.
00:19:35,935 --> 00:19:38,607
You just keep them as your friend and avoid that space.
00:19:38,607 --> 00:19:41,175
That is not beneficial.
00:19:41,175 --> 00:19:46,438
You have a lot of choices, but that supportive community is totally, totally key.
00:19:47,226 --> 00:19:59,998
If you feel really frozen and this is making it impossible for you to work on your project and you're dedicated to working on your project you can seek therapy or coaching.
00:19:59,998 --> 00:20:02,905
There's tons of book coaches out there.
00:20:02,905 --> 00:20:14,015
They are great for helping you stay on track, helping you set those goals, encouraging you to meet those goals, and they're also a person in your corner.
00:20:14,015 --> 00:20:21,958
You know, somebody that you're paying to keep you in order, and that can be, that that in itself can be super motivating.
00:20:21,958 --> 00:20:26,094
It can be the little nudge that you need to get through these these negative feelings.
00:20:26,094 --> 00:20:28,018
Yeah, that's good advice.
00:20:28,384 --> 00:20:30,993
I love the idea of book coaching.
00:20:30,993 --> 00:20:31,938
I've done a few.
00:20:31,938 --> 00:20:40,527
I've had a few people that have done it for over the years, but I feel like, as my parental responsibilities change, I'm going to go into that more.
00:20:40,527 --> 00:20:43,810
I'm actually going to take a little class to see what it, how I can structure it.
00:20:43,810 --> 00:20:53,926
So it's most helpful to clients because I I love that sort of cheerleader role and setting those goals and helping people figure out like what's the goal?
00:20:53,926 --> 00:20:56,574
That's going to give me that confidence that I can get done.
00:20:56,574 --> 00:21:01,846
That's going to ultimately, over a period of time, build me that book that I'm desperate to write.
00:21:01,846 --> 00:21:05,272
So you know, that's my, that's my next stage.
00:21:05,452 --> 00:21:06,434
I'll give you a reference.
00:21:07,237 --> 00:21:08,945
Okay, you can give me a reference.
00:21:08,945 --> 00:21:10,869
Yeah, okay.
00:21:10,869 --> 00:21:13,795
So let's wrap this up here.
00:21:13,795 --> 00:21:18,348
Just remember, most people are suffering from imposter syndrome.
00:21:18,348 --> 00:21:19,290
You are not alone.
00:21:19,290 --> 00:21:22,578
It does not reflect an actual lack of ability or dedication.
00:21:22,578 --> 00:21:25,074
It is all literally in your head.
00:21:25,074 --> 00:21:28,894
So I think that you can overcome this.
00:21:28,894 --> 00:21:35,335
You need to figure out the strategy for yourself that lets you banish this so it doesn't get in the way.
00:21:35,335 --> 00:21:37,290
This does not mean it's never gonna show up.
00:21:37,290 --> 00:21:40,472
It's gonna show up, but when it does show up, you know how to deal with it.
00:21:40,472 --> 00:21:49,175
So that's what we want you to do to think about all the things we've just talked about and figure out your strategy for dealing with imposter syndrome.
00:21:49,175 --> 00:21:51,167
All right, that's it for today's episode.
00:21:51,167 --> 00:21:55,305
We hope that helped you iron out some of the wrinkles around imposter syndrome.
00:21:55,464 --> 00:21:59,471
If you have questions or thoughts about this episode, please email us.
00:21:59,471 --> 00:22:05,920
We love to hear from you and please remember to visit our Writers with Wrinkles website, which is writerswithwrinklesnet.
00:22:05,920 --> 00:22:11,667
There's lots of stuff over there.
00:22:11,667 --> 00:22:14,421
There's a blog from past episodes, so if you are trying to find something that we talked about, that's a good place to start.
00:22:14,421 --> 00:22:21,638
You can find out also how to support the show by subscribing, following and recommending, and we want to thank you for all of your great, great reviews and comments.
00:22:21,638 --> 00:22:23,712
We've been getting some really good, fun stuff.
00:22:23,712 --> 00:22:39,512
We like hearing from you, as I already said, and join us next week for episode 16, where we are talking to Matt Eicheldinger, who is an author with Andrews McNeil Publishing and a TikTok phenomenon, so we're super excited to talk to him.
00:22:39,512 --> 00:22:46,939
So please join us for that and until then, our lovely listeners, happy reading, writing and listening.
00:22:46,939 --> 00:22:49,780
Bye Lisa, bye Beth, bye guys.
