Writing a Graphic Novel: Insights from New York Times bestselling author Eric Geron

Graphic novels are all the rage. So how do you write one? Do you have to be a writer and an artist? And what if you want to switch genres? Can authors do that? Do you need to stay on theme this week on Writers with Wrinkles? We get to the heart of these questions. Also, the perils of writing under a pseudonym are real. To get the details, stay right where you are. Hi friends, today we are thrilled to welcome bestselling children's author Eric Geron to the podcast. Eric is the number one New York Times bestselling author of the Hocus Pocus spelt book, poultry Geist, a Tale of Two Princes and Bye Bye Binary, along with numerous other titles, including the New York Times bestselling Descendants novelization. Under the name Riko Green, he earned his creative writing degree from the University of Miami and spent many years at Disney as an editor of New York Times bestselling books. He currently resides in New York City. So welcome, eric. We are obviously very thrilled to have you here.

Thank you so much. It's great to be here. Thanks so much for having me.

So I am just going to jump in with a couple fun stories. First of all, I'm just going to put it out there I feel like we are besties and you don't know it yet.

Oh, love to hear it. Interested to know more.

Welcome to my world. So we have so many connections that you are currently not aware of and I'm going to share with you. First of all and this is my introduction to you was Poultry Geist. I won your picture book Poultry Geist on a Twitter giveaway and I love this book so much. It is so funny and just the title itself is hysterical. But the way you signed it it was to my son, to Oliver Cockadoodle Boo, come on, that is so cute and so clever and funny. But I also saw on your website that you edited the journal books for Gravity Falls, and I am a huge fan of Gravity Falls. I actually have the journal book with a hand on it. Oh, wow yeah, journal three yeah, journal three, and I also have Gravity Falls as my ringtone, and so that song is epic yeah it's the best, like just hearing it makes me happy. Even when I'm getting a spam call, I'm like, ooh, it's just Gravity Falls, and then I turn it off, so, and then of course, I have your fry guys and we're now with the same publisher. So, anyway, those are all my connections to you.

I love it, and they're all good bookish connections, which is all the better.

And Lisa showed me the Poultry Geist book. I was just beside myself because I think my favorite genre of books to read still to this day my kids are like older teenagers are semi-demented picture books, like picture books that have that little bit of something where you're like he just did that. Oh, my goodness, like those.

Mac truck. I was like oh.

I know the 18 wheeler gets dark.

Yeah, like dark, a little twisty and so funny, like the absurd, I think I totally appreciate. So I hope you keep putting those out there because I think kids really really need that sort of that kind of read.

Thank you. Yeah, that was a fun one.

We're going to jump into the first question, which is about your new book, fry Guys, which is a graphic novel, coming out on September 26. Is that right?

That's right, fry. Guys, I am so excited. It's my first graphic novel. So I've written, like you were saying, picture book and board book and middle grade and young adult, and this is my first graphic novel, so because of that I'm even more excited about it coming out soon.

That is so cool, yeah, so September 26 from Andrews McNeil Publishing. So, okay, this is a question about graphic novels, because it seems like a lot of agents and editors are looking for the Combo author illustrator and you are not an illustrator. So what was your approach to writing and pitching this novel? How did you visualize it as you were going along? Because it is slightly different than if you are doing the art and the words.

Sure. So the way I wrote Fry Guys, which I have here, my finished copy, it looks beautiful. Janie Ho the illustrator oh beautiful, such a great job, yeah. So when writing this I was very detailed with my art notes and how I viewed it was I'm going to throw everything in the kitchen sink or all of the spaghetti on the wall or whatever food analogy there is, so that Janie could almost pick and choose whatever she, whatever most spoke to her as she was illustrating. So, for example, I have the Fry Guys walking through town and I wanted to have some background shops. So it's, the characters are Sweets the sweet potato fry, curly the Curly fry and Waffle the Waffle fry, and they are the Fry Guys. And in one scene they are running through the town from Evil UF Onion Rings which have invaded Spud Town and Sweets says there are too many of them and Curly says let's make like fast food and run. And in the background I wanted there to be some shops. So I wrote top potato shop with a little potato dog in the window, and then they passed a cinema which has starch track playing a little potato humor. So Janie illustrated those in the book you can kind of see them here and holding it up to camera on our zoom call, and those details were the most fun for me to write and the most fun for me to see come to life. I wondered which ones Janie would choose to illustrate in terms of all of those little details and the ones she picked. It was so amazing to see them.

Were you just cracking yourself up as you were writing this? Because sometimes I mean, this stuff is so funny, the puns and the potato humor. Did you make yourself laugh?

I did so. Working on this it felt like I was playing in a sandbox of creativity and I wanted to just write things that were kind of, I want to say like taking risks and just doing things that were totally off beat and out. There I have one moment where a tater tot wanders into the story and gets zapped by one of the alien invaders and sizzles and that's all that we ever see of this tater tot and I thought that's making me laugh, so I hope it makes the readers laugh. I find it funny, even though it is totally a random moment that has very little to do with the plot. So I had a lot of fun sidestepping the story to find little moments of humor baked into the rest.

I find this interesting because I know when you write like a picture book which you've done they don't like you to give notes to the illustrators. They're like don't do it, stay away from that. That's their sandbox. And so it's interesting that when you were writing this graphic novel, that you had the illustrator notes or the art notes that you wanted to see happen accompany it when you pitched it. Did it take a while to find the right editor, or was it just something that you had a relationship Like? I'm really interested how that happened.

Yeah. So just to add this as well when it came to writing the art notes, I threw everything in the kitchen sink but I also at the same time had no expectation that they would be illustrated, because I didn't want the art notes to kind of pigeonhole or like hem the illustrator in, because I've really valued the illustrator, their creative journey as well with the bookmaking process. So there was a caveat of, like all these ideas to illustrate, but if you don't illustrate any of them, that's fine, I'm OK with that and genuinely and sincerely. So if you find any of these funny, then great, because I find them funny, but if not, that's OK too. And I think having that sort of balance allowed for a really natural cohesion of text and art and a really natural collaboration so that the illustrator felt that freedom to do what she wanted with it. So I do think that's important.

Did you work together? I mean, that kind of leads into perfectly to our next question Did you work together as she was, as she was doing the illustration? Was it something collaborative, as you moved forward through the book as she did? Or was it something that you gave her the notes and then that was it and you just said, ok, now, it's now, it's up to you?

Yeah, I basically said here it is. I gave the manuscript to my editor, the wonderful Aaron Pascal. Yay, so so fabulous, yeah, so I gave the manuscripts to Aaron, full of the text and all of these art notes, with the caveat of you know, here it is. I hope Janie has fun bringing this to life. And that was kind of it. I kind of just let everything kind of go from there, trusting in the process, and when I finally saw the artwork I was absolutely delighted and surprised and Janie took things in a way far better than I could have imagined in my own brain. I was really, really impressed and it was just really really exciting to see it come to life.

Did you know her beforehand, or was this something the publisher said? We think this is a match. We're going to choose this person.

Yeah, so the publisher kind of matched us up together and it's still funny. I have a connection with Janie that I've never mentioned before, which is so many years ago. I was in a bookstore and I found a picture book there and it was about a bear and a chicken and the bear was making some sort of chicken soup with, I think, with the chicken's help. It had kind of like a quirky, perhaps dark twist, which is what I gravitate toward, and I remember thinking that the book was genius. I was obsessed with it and fast forward with Fry Guys when I was paired up with Janie for the book. I then looked into Janie's history as a creative and found out that he was the author, illustrator, of that picture book. So it was a very cool moment of wow. I can't believe I'm collaborating with someone whose work I really value and just think is awesome. So that was cool, that's like fate.

That's like fate, you know, coming together that you're yeah, that's, that's a great story. I love that kind of unfolding, when you know you're both on this path and you don't know it, and then you collide. At this moment for this great project, I have actually kind of a specific question. I thought this was interesting. I saw on Amazon that the font for this graphic novel is dyslexia friendly and I was wondering is that something that you and the illustrator wanted, or is that just a default from Andrews McMeal?

That is something that I believe is important to Andrews McMeal and something that the publisher helped make happen. I personally think that it's incredible that that's the case with this book, but it's definitely something that they led and I was just very happy to hear about it.

I think that's so, so interesting, because I've heard that kids who have more challenges reading gravitate toward graphic novels, just because it employs different parts of your brain. So that's a really cool advancement, I think.

I agree. I think that for this reading, this age demo, I want to say ages six to nine or something around then and this book is also really good for just that reluctant reader or the kid who is just getting into reading, and I think that having it also be dyslexia friendly just helps its reach.

Yeah, definitely, and I mean hopefully it starts showing up in classrooms right away after it hits the shelves on the 26th. So the next question we have you work across all these different formats, multiple genres, multiple formats picture books, novels, graphic novels. So we often hear from listeners that they're writing picture books, but now they want to write a middle grade, or they're writing an adult and now they want to write a picture book. What advice would you give for those writers out there who want to change genres or try something new or just make that jump?

That's such a good question. I think that I encourage people to explore different genres and to. If a certain format book format is speaking to you, then I think it's definitely worth exploring and seeing what it feels like to work in that space and to have that creative play. If someone writes young adult novels and suddenly they really want to try their hand at the picture book, I think for me it's important to think about intention. Are you just wanting to write that picture book just because? Do you love picture books? Do you love writing that picture books and you want to take that more seriously now? So I think it depends where the person is coming from. For me, I love every book format. It's just something that I always have loved and appreciated. I love the spare text in the picture book and how it relies so heavily on the illustrations. I love how deep and insightful you can get in a young adult novel and how you can really bring out those really nuanced feelings that the character is having In middle grade. I like how lighthearted and spooky it can be in some cases and also have a lot of heart at the same time. So for me I was never able to just pick one, because I love them all so much. So if somebody else is facing that same quandary, I think go for it and try your hand at writing manuscripts for each. Really live in that world. Read a lot of middle grade if you want to start writing middle grade. Read a lot of picture books if you'd like to start picture books and figuring out which kind of picture book is the type of picture book you'd like to write, which sort of middle grade or young adult novel is the type you'd like to write, because there are so many, even within the formats. There are contemporary young adults, fantasy young adults. The list goes on, same with picture books. There are the spooky, silly ones that I tend to like to write and read, and then there are also more just, heartfelt ones or quieter ones. Which ones have you always loved to read? Which ones would you like to start to write yourself or have that be part of your story?

That's a great response. It's funny because I just had a friend who writes picture books and she messaged me the other day and said I think I want to start writing middle grades. Where do I start? And I just said you start by reading middle grades, that's the way to go. And so there's two of us that she's really good friends with One writes more literary and I'm more commercial and so of course my books were this is what you should read, this is what I love to read. And then our friend gave a very different sampling. But that's such a great advice because that can help you decide which calls to you more, which appeals to you more and which more fits how you want to dive into a new genre.

Yeah, and I think too, a lot of people have a lot of different views on this question. So I know people who say I write young adults and I only write young adult, and I only want to write on adult or that for any of the formats, and I think that's totally valid too. It's very person by person, especially when someone's trying to establish a brand for themselves and they want to be known as the young adult fantasy writer or the adorable picture book writer or illustrator or what have you. In terms of how I viewed my own work, even though it spans a breadth of formats and age demos, I think that all of my books have a similar vibe, if you will punny fry guys, poultry guys, tale of two princes, bye, bye, binary. They're all very silly, lighthearted, funny and have that heart at the core of them. They're colorful stories and that's just kind of me. So it all depends on how you want to be out in the world.

Perfect answer? Yeah, I'm not so true. I feel like if you can Chart kind of a theme to your work through the different genres, that helps it make sense to you. I had that. I started out writing adult thrillers and mysteries and then when I jumped to middle grade, totally by accident, it was the same type of stuff but middle grade. So I feel like that theme stuck with me even though I jumped from genre to genre. So that's actually a really really good way to think about it if you're trying to make that jump. So what are the, the stories that kind of define your writing up to that point, and are you planning on using that as you go forward? Or you can a jump ship and do something totally different really good way to Kind of noodle that while you're thinking about making the jump.

I also really respect people who pivot entirely where they are only writing contemporary young adult and then one day they're writing like adult fantasy, something totally different, and I think that's Very bold and I respect that and sometimes one can do that if they Realize now what I've been doing hasn't been fulfilling for me or it isn't working my way. I want it to work and I want to pivot and try something entirely new and maybe that will have a different experience or Impact or something and sometimes they when you pivot.

I Pivoted it at one point when I was writing for adult and I wrote this really dark, twisty kind of hilarious romance and they made me take a pseudonym to publish it like. We want to publish it, but not as you, because that's too confusing. So sometimes you'll read something and you'll be in the acknowledgments and you'll realize that it's an author you know very well for something else.

Writing under pseudonym so for me, for me personally, I am now anti pen name right now, for myself, because the time that I did use a pen name, it was an anagram that my friend helped me come up with Eric drawn. If you scramble up all the letters, it's we go green. And At the time I was writing under this pending because I was a little bit trepidatious. I was a little bit nervous about being a first-time published writer and I didn't know how I would be received or how it would go, and I just wanted to kind of have this pen name to create some distance between me and the work. Well, I did this and one of my books descendants, the novelization hit the New York Times list With the pen name Rico green and I went oh my goodness, this is so amazing, but does it count? Oh, my, didn't feel like it was my, it wasn't my name on the list. I say who's Rico green? I? This is a made-up person, but it's also me. But so ever since then I no longer use a pen name, and with the, the sense of you know what, you just never know.

He must have been so excited, but your heart must have broken just a little bit.

It did. I was like no one can even contact me if they wanted to to ask me to write a book for their Publishing house or work with me. It was like there was no Contact information or agent information for this made-up person right. So it was just very in a vacuum, like I knew it but like nobody else knew it, which it's okay. I don't really take my successes, other people's perspective on my successes, into account. When I'm thinking about my successes, I'm usually just happy knowing I'm, in this case, in terms of like finding more work and more of a practical business sense. It kind of felt very isolating, like I can't use this data to leverage more work coming in.

I didn't like the student name thing either. I found it very confusing, almost like I had this split personality and when people, when I went out on tour for that book and I would go to signings and people would call me by the name on the cover, I wouldn't react, I wouldn't turn around, I would. And so I'd have to say up front call me Beth, because I'm not gonna answer to that other name, because that's just something I had to make up. And then, when you're trying to promote it, there's that, like you said, that weird vacuum where you don't really know, people don't know it's you, they don't talk to you, they can't reach you. It's very strange. I don't love it.

Yeah, I agree it works for some people. For me, after that, no more pen name for me.

But that's wise advice. I would agree. I would agree with that. So, moving on. So this is. We always have to ask the question about writing process, and it's interesting because, again, you've written in so many different genres and formats, and do you, and it may be different for each one, but do you plan the writing process before you start or do you just let the story take control and follow its own path?

I usually start with the premise. Sometimes it's starting with the title, like for poultry guys. I just that word just stuck to me like glue and I just began to ideate on what a story with that title would be about. And then the concept kind of forms if not first, then second. This is a book about a chicken that crosses the road and gets to the other side as in the spirit world. So this is our ghost chicken. And then starting to think about the heart. What is the story about at the heart of it? Is it about trying to? Now that the chicken is a ghost, do they have to be spooky? Well, maybe the other ghost animals on the roadside are convincing the chicken to be spooky now that the chicken is a ghost. But maybe the chicken doesn't want to be spooky just because they're a ghost. So they stand up for themselves and it's an anti-bullying message of be who you are and you don't need to be someone you're not just because other people want you to be. And that's how that story ended up taking shape. For fried guys, it was a matter of thinking about what is fried guys going to be, about thinking of different alien attacks or funny things that could happen to their town. And then, breaking my into, I broke it into four acts one act introducing the characters and then the other three acts focusing on one of the fried guys and their strength as a character, and that's basically how that started to take shape. And then I just hit the ground running. But I don't hit the ground running unless I have a good sense of where I'm going.

First, those are wise words.

Thank you, it works for me. I know everyone has a different process.

That is smart. I often leave the starting line before I have any idea where I'm going, and then I find myself months later back at the starting line because I didn't plan well. So I'm going to remember those for myself.

I could use those right now. Well, I always start. It's funny, I always start with the title. Like the title comes first.

Okay.

It inspires the rest of the story usually, and I always know the beginning and I always know how it's going to end. But how to get there is what trips me up. You know, it's like I'll get going, I'll get the first act done and then I get to the second act and I'm like, oh my God, I have to write the rest of the story. And this is when I usually call Beth panicking, because I'm like I don't know how to write, I don't know where it's going, I don't know what's happened.

Totally the murky middle, as they call it. I call the mushy middle.

I think everyone has to oh.

I like that. I like because my brain turns to mush, so Okay, it's all mushy messy and murky it's dark and dire is what it is.

It's nice to know that. All writers experience that, though you get to the middle, oh yeah, I want to quit. I've had it with this.

Yeah, yeah, cause I don't know about you, but my mind wants the character to get what they want right away. It pains me to see the character in pain and have all these things snatched away from them and left and right turns and the frustration they can't get what they. I'm like just give it to them, yeah.

You're a kind soul. I'm throwing rocks at my character. I'm like, yeah, no, that's not happening yet.

Good, oh, that's how it should be. No, that's great.

One more question while we have you here. We get a lot of people asking about writing software. What do you use? How does it work? So we thought we'd throw that at you to see if you use any specialized writing software and if you do, which is it and why do you like it?

I use Microsoft Word and I like it, except when track changes are on and there are a million track changes, because then the document is very slow. It's slow to save, it's slow to scroll, it's slow to add comments. So I am muddling my way through Word documents these days. That's basically it. I keep it simple.

Same, the fact that I know there's all those other. There's different softwares that people use, and it's Scribner and I don't know. I know there's other ones, but they seem so complicated and confusing and so I just use Word too. I'm like this seems like it's working.

Yeah, same. The visuals and everything that people add. I think that's amazing. Or the diagrams and the charts and the yeah, I think we're all we are.

We are with you on that. It's just another thing that can confuse me and then not work.

Yeah, yeah.

Technology is my enemy. Well, especially if you're in the messy middle and you're looking for any excuse to just procrastinate. And if your software is not working, that is a great excuse to procrastinate.

So it is, I agree, and even, yes, scribner or the other applications where people can add images. I just know I would be surfing the web for images to add to it, like all day long, all night long, not getting any writing done.

No words would be written on that day. Yeah, I hear you on that. I'm very easily distracted. I'm like the golden retriever of writers.

I'm always amazed like how there's some writers that do the aesthetics boards, like they go out and they get all these images. Do you do that?

You know, I feel like when it comes to the social media and the assets and things, I just kind of write the book and hope for the best.

It's a lot.

Hope for the best.

It's a lot that they go out and make and then they do like there's some people that do soundtracks for it, and I'm like, oh my God, like I can barely muddle through a book. How are you having time for all these other arts and crafts associated with it?

I know, and they all look so nice too, yeah.

I always love them. I'm always like, oh, that's so pretty.

Me too. I'm like, can somebody make that for me? I'll pay you.

One time I had a friend of mine that she saw how pathetic my like I had a book launch or something and I it was like long before I figured out how to do Canva. And she just thought and she's like you know what, sweetie, I'm going to do you a favor and I'm going to make you like a little, you know a little Canva thing or whatever she did. And like minutes later, it magically appeared in my inbox. I'm like thank you so much.

That was not me. I was not that friend. I can't, I can't Canva my way out of a box, to be completely honest with everybody. So, eric, thank you for taking the time today to talk to us and share your wisdom. We are grateful.

You're welcome.

There's some really good insights in here in this conversation that I think our listeners are going to find a lot of value in.

Awesome.

And, as always, thank you listeners for tuning in. Please visit our link tree or the podcast notes and find out how to support the show by subscribing. And we will see you again next week, september 25th, when we're introducing a brand new segment called Marketing Monday, which God knows I need to listen to. So we hope to see you for that episode and, until then, happy reading, writing and listening.