Beth McMullen: Hi friends, I'm Beth McMullen

Lisa: And I'm Lisa Schmidt

Beth McMullen: And we're the co-hosts of Writers With Wrinkles. This is season five, episode 19, and today we're very excited to welcome author Lisa Ridio back to the show. She's a returning guest. We love our returning guests because it means they're brave to come back and hang out with us again.

Lisa Frenkel Riddiough: Thank you for having me. It's so fun to be here.

Beth McMullen: We are very excited. So Lisa writes for kids of all ages. Through her board books, picture books, and middle grade novels, Lisa uses wordplay, humor, rhyme, rhythm, and whimsy to invite young readers into the magic of books where they can feel at home. She has an MFA in writing for children and young adults from Hamline University, and is a former sales executive, a backyard squirrel watcher, and a frequent baker of chocolate pound cake. more about Lisa at lisaridio.com, and I will drop that in the show notes so you don't have to write it down. So thank you for joining us today

Lisa Frenkel Riddiough: Thank you. You're welcome. Thank you for having me

Beth McMullen: [00:01:00] I'm very I'm very thinking about chocolate pound cake now.

Lisa Frenkel Riddiough: I know. I actually haven't made chocolate pound cake in a while, so maybe that was my, my,

Beth McMullen: right after

this. 

Lisa Frenkel Riddiough: exactly.

Beth McMullen: seriously. 

New Book Furious Turtle

Beth McMullen: So you a brand-new book coming out tomorrow, and we are very

Lisa Frenkel Riddiough: Yes, I do

Beth McMullen: about this book. It is absolutely adorable. So a minute and tell all of our listeners about it

Lisa Frenkel Riddiough: Oh, thank you so much. Yes, my book is called Furious Turtle, and it is book two in the Forest School of Big Feelings series, published by Disney Hyperion. And so let's see, Turtle is very excited for the school carnival. He has grand plans for winning all kinds of things, but of course, he doesn't win a single prize, and this makes him, of course, furious.

So he has to learn, he has to face his fury and figure out how to manage through that big [00:02:00] emotion. And I'll give you a hint. It has something... He finds his his solace and it has something to do with the dunking tank. So spoiler alert. Yes.

Beth McMullen: So

Lisa Frenkel Riddiough: but it's very funny

Rhymes And Forest School Cast

Beth McMullen: this is rhyming? All of your picture books are

Lisa Frenkel Riddiough: It,

Beth McMullen: correct?

Lisa Frenkel Riddiough: not all of my picture books are rhyming, but this one is rhyming, and the, the first one in the series was Embarrassed Ferret. So it's the same cast of characters at the forest school. Ms. Bunny is their teacher, and so you'll see all the same characters as were in Embarrassed Ferret. And yeah, so it's just fun.

Eh, you know, we've got, we've got a dragonfly and a horse and we've got a snake, and I mean, there's just a wide variety of animals in Ms. Bunny's class, and they all love each other, and they don't prey on each other, so that's good.

Beth McMullen: so that's nice. No eating of, other... No food chain issues.

Lisa Frenkel Riddiough: No.

Beth McMullen: That's great. I loved reading the rhyming picture books when my kids were little. It

just [00:03:00] it felt good. It kinda

Lisa Frenkel Riddiough: Yeah

Beth McMullen: to, to read them. So I was always happy to find those. That is very exciting.

Congratulations.

Lisa Frenkel Riddiough: Thank you

Beth McMullen: seeing it out there taking over the world

Lisa Frenkel Riddiough: Yeah. Thank you. Fingers crossed

Launch Events And Author Energy

Lisa: say Lisa's books are so funny. Like so, so, so funny. And she is doing her book launch, it's coming up at Old Haunts Bookstore in Granite Bay, which is in northern California. So all the NorCal peeps, please go out. I'll be there.

Lisa Frenkel Riddiough: please come

Lisa: she comes ready to play. Like

Lisa Frenkel Riddiough: This is true.

Lisa: talked

Lisa Frenkel Riddiough: Mmhmm 

Lisa: numerous times on the podcast, I've done, we've done three book signings together, three events, and each time I'm like sitting there, 'cause she's got a whole production going on next to me.

You know, she's got her pirate hat or, you know, whatever. She's got it going on, and I'm next to her like a little happy toad just watching her and just like pointing to to head down to go, "Just go see [00:04:00] Lisa Rodeo. That's where all the action is." You know? And so was like one gal, it was a bookstore, one of the bookstore owners was like like taking pity on me, and she's like, "You know, if you did this or this or this, maybe it would create more excitement around

Lisa Frenkel Riddiough: Oh my gosh. Well, I can't help it. I love, you know, I love all my characters, and I love stickers, and I, I 

mean, know, I love the crafting, so there's always some kind of craft project, and it's just fun. It's the fun zone.

Beth McMullen: You're

Lisa: like a walk

Beth McMullen: she's channeling that like amazing kindergarten teacher that every kid wanted, right?

Lisa Frenkel Riddiough: oh my gosh. I always wanted to be a teacher, and it's so funny that you said that 'cause I never... I went down the business road, and I didn't go down the education road. But it's fun to be able to circle back and be in the

Yeah, I'm in the classroom every now and then, you know, reading books, and it's great

Lisa: You're like a walking PBS show

Lisa Frenkel Riddiough: Really? Oh, thank... 

Lisa: you are. You're

Lisa Frenkel Riddiough: [00:05:00] okay. I'll take that as a compliment. Thank you

Lisa: just, yeah, it's, you're very joyful. And so it's just fun to be around you and watch you in

Lisa Frenkel Riddiough: Aw, that's so nice

Lisa: so anyway, so that's what's going on there, and I'm super excited 'cause I will be there celebrating your big day, as I

Lisa Frenkel Riddiough: Thanks.

Lisa: am.

Lisa Frenkel Riddiough: you're a super fan and I appreciate it

Beth McMullen: if you wanna meet Jaleesa's, you get a

two for one. 

Lisa: The 

Lisa Lisa Show.

Beth McMullen: If you're a NorCal

Lisa: Go, come. Come hang with us. It'll be fun.

Beth McMullen: them.

Lisa Frenkel Riddiough: We would love it

Why Querying Again Matters

Lisa: so, so what made me ... This is kind of one of the things that we are jumping in, 'cause we were talking about picture books today which you, I feel like, are one of the queen bees of picture books.

Lisa Frenkel Riddiough: Oh. Thank you

Lisa: joy. Like, that is you just, you just radiate joy. And you've recently gone through a situation that was not but you handled it with such grace, and one of the thing- You got thrown out into the query trenches, and you can talk about that in a [00:06:00] second. But the reason I called Beth and I'm like, "We have to have Lisa on the show again," is because you read me your query letter pitch, and I was like, "This is the best query letter I have ever heard."

And I've

Lisa Frenkel Riddiough: Wow. Thank you

Lisa: was It's very different than pitching anything else. And so, like, we wanna talk about that

Lisa Frenkel Riddiough: Mmhmm 

Lisa: but let's, like, talk about how you got thrown back out there

Lisa Frenkel Riddiough: Mm-hmm. Yeah. 

Agent Retirement And Starting Over

Lisa Frenkel Riddiough: So I h- was with my agent, Jennifer Matson, who I adore, absolutely love and adore. I was with her for seven years, and I think we sold seven books over seven years. So God, I... You know, she's amazing. She retired, and that, I remember thinking, like, you know how you talk to people and they're like, "Oh, you know, I lost my agent," and then you listen to their woe about w- whatever it was.

And I can remember hearing stories about losing your agent and thinking, "That is [00:07:00] never gonna happen to me. Like, no way." But alas, it did happen. She retired, and of course, she gave me, you know, some notice, and we m- pl- you know, we strategized over when her ending date was, and how we would sort of wrap up the work that we had been working on.

But at any rate, nonetheless, I had to find a new agent. And oh, my goodness, there was a part of me that thought, "Well, someone from my agency will pick me up," right? Because you know, medium-sized agency, there's plenty of agents. S- surely there will be a match between me and one of the many agents, and that didn't happen, and that was hard.

That was a hard pill to swallow. But as we all know, you want your agent to love your work, and so if whoever it was, v- you know, at my old agency that was looking at my work didn't love it, they weren't gonna be the right match for me. So I had to accept that and start again. And [00:08:00] so yeah, that is what happened.

I was back to zero. And I know you ha- I've got your question about how did I approach it. Do you want, should we dive right into, right into that?

Lisa: What we can talk about is how did you... Yeah, how you approached it. What

Lisa Frenkel Riddiough: Mmhmm 

Lisa: Like, because querying the second time around is very different from querying the first time around. What was your approach? Like, how- you- I'm sure you had a different strategy,

Lisa Frenkel Riddiough: Totally.

Lisa: you had somebody telling you what to do, and you were like, "God, just stop." Everyone has advice, right?

Second Time Query Strategy

Lisa Frenkel Riddiough: Everyone has advice, but I mean, like, first let's review very briefly how it went around the first time. You know, throwing the spaghetti at the wall for eight years or whatever, and querying everyone, and try, you know, trying to get above the slush pile, and just not knowing what you're doing, and meanwhile trying to hone your craft.

So it was kind of a hot mess that first time around. But the second time around with all this experience under my belt, [00:09:00] and I really had more of a sense of calm about it. Like, I'm gonna find the right agent eventually. Like, it, I- I've- I've built this career. It'll all be okay. So I really took a very measured approach to my querying, and I had a very small pool of agents that I queried initially.

And all of them except one were personal referrals. So it really was important to me that I knew really more than just the, more than just what you find on the internet, right? Like, I wanted to know really how it is with this agent. And so the one that wasn't a personal referral was actually an agent I had queried back in the day who had requested more work of mine and eventually had rejected me, but in the most lovely way that I've never forgotten her.

And so I, you know, added her to my very small list. I think I [00:10:00] only had five agents on my list and you know, she did reject me again, but it's okay, right? Like, she didn't love, love, love my work, and that is what we want, the person who loves our work and who we you know, we love them back. And so I had...

Offers Nudges And Choosing Agents

Lisa Frenkel Riddiough: So then I had these five agents, and During-- so right after my agent, my old agent retired, I ha- still had, you know, a couple manuscripts, and I emailed my current editor and I was like, "Hey, you know, I don't have an agent anymore, but I have a couple manuscripts, you know, what's the protocol?" And she's like, "Send them.

Send them." So I sent her two manuscripts, my current editor, and she passed on one and made an offer on the other. So the, the agents that had m- that I had already queried, I was able to then sort of hold up this offer. You know, I've got this offer in my hot little hands, and I nudged them and that, that sped up the process you know, as can happen.

So [00:11:00] then those agents then requested more work and in between this time too... Well, actually before I got the offer from my current editor, two of the five agents passed on the one manuscript I had sent them in my query, right? And I remember thinking, "Oh, but now I have an offer. Maybe I should be reaching out to them again and saying, 'Hey, but I just got this offer.'"

And then I was like, "No." Because they needed to love my other work, right? Th-that key, key component here, like you don't just wanna have an offer and be like, "Here's a freebie." You genuinely want them to love your body of work, right? So that's-- I kept my eye on that goal and eventually had a couple of calls and then narrowed it down and made my decision, and it was amazing.

I, I-- to be in the place of looking for an agent for years and years and years and now being in a place of having a choice, I, it, like, [00:12:00] who knew that would happen? It was incredible.

Beth McMullen: So much of your experience was brought to bear on it, the experience that you didn't have the first round.

Lisa Frenkel Riddiough: Right

Beth McMullen: the, we're older, you understand people more, you're

able to be a little bit patient, you're not as reactive. You know your stuff is good. It's out there

in the world proving it every day.

Lisa Frenkel Riddiough: Mm-hmm.

Beth McMullen: What an important lesson for everybody who's querying to keep front of mind is that the agent needs to love your work. They don't need to love you. They need to love your work. It has to be a

Lisa Frenkel Riddiough: Right

Beth McMullen: Because this publishing universe is so competitive, that person really needs to be really a hundred percent on your side and absolutely convinced that you're the best thing since sliced bread.

So I feel like that lesson and your ability to stay true to that lesson as you work through what is at a very emotional process by all measure.

Lisa Frenkel Riddiough: Mm-hmm.

Beth McMullen: You have this situation, the situation changes, and, there's not a little amount of [00:13:00] panic that goes along with that. But to be able to st- to stay true to your own knowledge, what you have learned over the years, holding onto that and having it work, it's amazing.

Lisa Frenkel Riddiough: Yeah. I mean, I do remember thinking, "No one is gonna love my work like Jennifer." Like, I, that, that was, like, the heartache, right? Like, I had this agent that I just adored, and she, sh- she pro- I told her at one point that she gave me probably the greatest compliment of my life, which was that she said, "I love the way your brain works."

And if you are, if you are out there and you're confused about your own brain like I've been my own, my whole life, that just said it all to me, and I thought, "I'll never find somebody else that can see my work that way." And, you know, now we're embarking on this whole new chapter, and it's amazing, so.

Business Mindset And Silver Linings

Lisa: One of the things that I appreciated in your decision-making process was that your approach to it you were able [00:14:00] to, like, pull out your emotions and think of it as a business decision,

Lisa Frenkel Riddiough: Mmhmm 

Lisa: this is a business decision and it's not, you can't always just think with your heart

Lisa Frenkel Riddiough: Yes

Lisa: You really have to pull those two apart

Lisa Frenkel Riddiough: Yeah

Lisa: and because, and we keep, we keep talking about this over and over on Writers with Wrinkles, but it is so true.

This is a business, and you want whoever is representing you to make decisions that keep that in mind. Like,

Lisa Frenkel Riddiough: Right

Lisa: know, that's who you want in your court is somebody who thinks about everything from a marketing perspective and how they're gonna sell your book, and I think that probably played a lot into your decision

Lisa Frenkel Riddiough: Yeah. It i- it is hard to do that. I've have found throughout my whole career that it's hard to be the business person, even though I come from the business world. You know, I was the business person, but when it's your own personal art, somehow or another, y- you know, [00:15:00] that switch flips, and it's hard to...

it's hard not to just go with your heart because your work is your heart, right? Your work is your heart, and so you, you do have to pull yourself away from that and put your business hat on, and it's hard to do for a lot of people

Beth McMullen: I think too the idea that what you were saying about how you didn't feel like anyone would ever love your stuff as much as your retiring agent would.

Lisa Frenkel Riddiough: Mm-hmm.

Beth McMullen: You often hear these tales from people where they've decided there is one agent for them, and if that person in the query process rejects them, they are devastated because they're convinced this is the only person that they're ever gonna be able work with.

I think important to keep in mind that there are lots of opportunities with different people. For people who are like s- has their, have their list and they're like, "This is the only-- these three are

the only ones I could ever work with," it's not true. You're gonna have a different relationship with whoever you choose, but it will be unique, and it will be about you, and it will be about the work, [00:16:00] and it, it's-- Don't put yourself in a box because it's really limiting

Keep Every Draft Organized

Lisa Frenkel Riddiough: Well, here's a silver lining that particularly for picture book writers, because typically as picture book writers, we have many and multiple manuscripts in our computer. I mean, it's a little bit different if, than, you know, novel writing. You, you, of course you may have a couple novels, but you're not gonna have, like, 15 of them, you know?

But with picture books, I've got a computer full of picture book manuscripts, and with my previous agent, I would typically send her, like, five of them at a time. And sh- and I, and I, I kind of learned this, you know? I, instead of sending one and going like, "What do you think about this?" I'd be like, "Here's five.

Which one do you like best?" And she would pick one, and that would be the one we worked on, but then the other four would go back into my computer. So the silver lining is I have a computer full of manuscripts that didn't, for whatever reason, at whatever time I presented them to my previous agent, they didn't bubble up to the top.

[00:17:00] Now they have a new opportunity to bubble up to the top with a new agent. And, and in fact a couple of the manuscripts I sent as a part of my sort of portfolio submission were ones that had been sitting in my computer for years. And they d- you know, they, they did what they needed to do and, you know, provided a spark to a couple of, of these agents.

So it was amazing silver lining.

Beth McMullen: This is why we never throw anything away. Keep

everything. 

Lisa Frenkel Riddiough: You never know

Beth McMullen: You never know when you're gonna wanna go back to it or even

to, if you write longer form fiction, you might just want a piece of it or, 

Lisa Frenkel Riddiough: great

Beth McMullen: like that. So keep all those crazy drafts, but from personal experience, keep them organized because you don't wanna spend a lot of time editing a draft that turns out to be the-- not the one that you're supposed to be editing. Not that

Lisa Frenkel Riddiough: Oh

Beth McMullen: done that.

Lisa Frenkel Riddiough: gosh, yeah. Hello. Yeah

Beth McMullen: Anyway, let's jump a little bit. 

Pitching Picture Books vs MG

Beth McMullen: You have done middle grade, you've done picture books. What is the [00:18:00] difference when you're pitching these two different... Like, how do you pitch a picture book that's unique as opposed to how you might pitch a middle grade novel?

Lisa Frenkel Riddiough: Well, I mean, I think in the context of... I, I mean, I believe when you're pitching any work, right, you sort of wanna have that elevator pitch, right? You wanna have that, like, really short, you know, what's the hook, what's the story, you know, what's the twist, whatever. But in the context of querying, I mean, I would say your picture book pitch, and I know we're gonna dive into the mechanics of that a little bit more, it, it's just shorter, and you're, you're, you know, you're really just getting to the crux of it.

You know, here's what it is, here's who I'm aiming... Here's the age range I'm aiming at here's the gist of the story, and here's the comps and the word count. Whereas with middle grade, you have a, you wanna give a little bit more information. I mean, you, you wanna give all that information, but you also wanna talk about, like, what is the external arc?

What, what is, what is the action? What is [00:19:00] actually happening in this story? And also, what is the internal arc of the protagonist? What is that emotional piece maybe that is gonna change or not change in the, through the course of the, of the book? I think you just have more room in a middle grade. You can fill out your paragraph a little bit.

You know, it can be a little bit longer, but it's still similar-ish, right?

Lisa: So you know what? I, I don't know if you were done with that,

Lisa Frenkel Riddiough: Oh, yeah

A Query Letter Example

Lisa: I wanted to ask you to read the pitch that you read to me that I fell in love with, that I just thought, "Oh my gosh, you have to come on the show." And would you mind reading that query letter?

Lisa Frenkel Riddiough: Sure, I will, I will read the query letter. This was, yes, this was one that went to-- well, I'll just read it. I changed the names just to, you know, for that purpose. But okay. "Dear agent, I am honored to be referred to you by your client, special friend. She speaks of you with sparkle. I'm seeking representation because my agent, Jennifer Matson of ABLA, is retiring from the [00:20:00] business.

She signed me with my debut middle grade and picture book manuscripts in 2019, and we have sold a total of seven books since. My portfolio of submission-ready manuscripts include several picture books, a lower middle grade fantasy, and a board book series. Additionally, I'm in progress on a middle grade graphic novel memoir script.

Today, I am pleased to send you my current picture book delight, Goose, Goose, Duck. Goose and Duck have fun playing chase at the park, but when Gus, a boy, and Duke, a dog, show up, things get out of control. Thank goodness for Moose and Truck. In just 88 words, this tongue twister puts a mouth-scrambling spin on the classic Duck, Duck, Goose and pays tribute to A Greyhound, A Groundhog by Emily Jenkins.

Wordplay is my forte, whether it be through double meaning, rhyme, tongue twisters, or exploring the way that humans and animals struggle to communicate with one another. My hope is that my writing not only entertains, but also works to invite reluctant readers into the magic of books where they can feel at home.

I hold an MFA from [00:21:00] Hamlin University, 2018, and I'm a writing memoir with Society of Young Inklings. I love to share what I know about writing for kids at conferences and workshops, and I'm in continued pursuit of improving my writing and myself. Thank you for considering my work. I look forward to your reply.

Sincerely, Lisa."

Lisa: That's good

Lisa Frenkel Riddiough: Thank you.

Why This Query Works

Beth McMullen: It's such a, it's such a compact picture of everything, right? You get your voice, the picture book content, your commitment to the literary community, your expertise, all the things that you need a query letter. It's interesting though, 'cause I was keeping in mind what you said about the fact that you have... It's a lot less space taken up looking at plot than if it was an adult novel or a a middle-grade novel. So yeah, you get a little extra room in there to throw some of these other things in. It's

Lisa Frenkel Riddiough: True

Beth McMullen: And it worked, [00:22:00] so there you

Lisa Frenkel Riddiough: Yeah. There you go

Beth McMullen: in the pudding. Absolutely

Picture Book Pitch Formula

Lisa: W- what advice would you give somebody who is pitching a, a picture book that something that's, they can take away, like a nugget they, they can take away today?

Lisa Frenkel Riddiough: Well, just in terms of the pitch itself, like what, what do I think they need to have in the pitch itself? J- okay. Yeah yeah, I've thought about this question a lot, and I... My personal belief with picture books, honestly, is that, in my notes here I wrote down, the title. The title should say at least 75%, if not 100%, of what this book is about, right?

You should be able, I, I think you should be able to say, "Oh, I wrote a book and it's called," like for example, Pie Rats. Pie Rats. In your brain, you're already going, right? You're already thinking, "Well, what does that mean?" And you know, "What, what could it be?" You know so I think you're, [00:23:00] I think people need to spend more time on their title and really nail that thing down.

Of course, the pitch is short, like the form itself. And then I think there should be just really three sentences. The first sen- and, and it could go, I was looking at some of my different pitches, and I've done them in different orders, but the three sentences would typically be first sentence, title, word count, comps; second sentence, the gist of the story; third sentence, the twist or the ending.

And I know this is different in, this can be different in other other forms, but for picture books, you need to tell the ending. You know, you, you need the, you need to know it. And then I also think that when you're writing that pitch paragraph or that, those couple of sentences, you need to give a hint to what makes the story unique through the words that you choose in the pitch, right?

So it gives them a sense of, I mean, just for example, I [00:24:00] used in the one that I just read to you I used, you know, in just 88 words, this tongue twister puts a mouth-scrambling spin. That's hard to say, and it is a tongue twister. So, you know, I'm giving a little, I'm feeding a little bit of it, of what makes the story unique just with the language I'm choosing in the pitch.

Make Every Word Count

Beth McMullen: Because picture books, like you said, eighty-eight words, every word has gotta do double, triple, quadruple duty. These words all need to be selected with the utmost care, and if you're lazy in your letter, then that's gonna cause the agent who's reading it to be like, "Why should I read these eighty-eight words?

You weren't careful in your actual letter." Your letter

Lisa Frenkel Riddiough: Yeah

Beth McMullen: like you, and it puts forward what, your superpowers in writing, which is this respect for the-- each word that you're putting

out there has to work, and it-- you can tell that you've thought about all of those words. And I think that in addition to conveying the idea that you're trying [00:25:00] to convey, there's two levels.

There's that next level where the agent is now really aware of your professionalism in this picture book space.

And so I think it's important when you're crafting query letters, if you can bring two things to the letter, one that's on the page and one that's rising almost from the page how good is that?

Now the agent knows that about you.

Lisa Frenkel Riddiough: Yeah

Beth McMullen: like that multi-layered approach to presenting the idea and the content that's required in a query, but also this notion that I'm trying to show you that this is my wheelhouse, this is what I do well,

Lisa Frenkel Riddiough: Right 

Beth McMullen: it's pretty

Lisa: just even the opening line, you know, "So and so speaks of you with sparkle." I mean, that's such a picture book writer, you know what I

Lisa Frenkel Riddiough: Yeah

Lisa: mean? I mean, just that line right there sets the tone for the whole query letter. It just, it shows who you are in one sentence, and I mean, that's the one thing that stuck with me the most.

I was like, "Oh my God, what a beautiful way to say that." And [00:26:00] I'm sure ... And right away that agent was like, "Oh my God, somebody's speaking about me with sparkle." Like, like right then you're just

Lisa Frenkel Riddiough: To receive a letter like that, right?

Lisa: Like right then you've already elevated the, the agent. Like her brain is already now wide open for you and receptive to what you're about to say because you've given them such a high compliment. I mean, that's honestly ... I mean, I, I remember the rest of the letter, but that right there is like, oh my God, she has just like, she set the bar really high. Like this agent is already gonna love her because, you know, somebody spoke about her with sparkle. You know what I mean?

Lisa Frenkel Riddiough: Mm-hmm. Yeah

Lisa: everybody loves ... Like if somebody said that to me, like, "So and so spoke of you with sparkle," and I'm like, "Really?

Did they?"

Lisa Frenkel Riddiough: And it also, obviously,

Lisa: nice.

Lisa Frenkel Riddiough: it has to be authentic. I mean, this is authentically true. Like, I didn't make that up. You know? Like, I didn't just go, "Well, how can I make this agent be..." You know?

Lisa: No,

Lisa Frenkel Riddiough: [00:27:00] No, it's totally true.

Lisa: It's so authentic and it's so

Lisa Frenkel Riddiough: Yeah

Lisa: and you're such like a kind, joyful person. Just that one sentence right there the agent who you are and made them feel good at the same time. This is good

Beth McMullen: listeners who are querying, feel like one of the takeaways from all of this is that your query letter has to be its own work of art. You really do need to

Lisa Frenkel Riddiough: Yeah.

Beth McMullen: in the time and the

Lisa Frenkel Riddiough: Mm-hmm. 

Beth McMullen: and think about it almost like you'd think about the words for a picture book. Every single word in there is critical

'cause you just don't get that much space.

You get one

page, right? This is your whole-- all the years you've spent crafting this novel or whatever it is, it comes down to this one page. So

Lisa Frenkel Riddiough: Yeah. It's a lot of pressure.

Beth McMullen: ti- put aside the time for it. Make-- remind yourself you're gonna do 25 versions of this

until it gets to the point where you feel confident that it's conveying all those things it needs to convey. And if you can do it well, then the agent has confidence that you're thoughtful, and you're [00:28:00] probably pretty good at this writing thing. So definitely amazing. 

Losing an Agent Isn’t the End

Beth McMullen: We're gonna switch gears a little bit back to the switching agents when your agent retires sort of idea. Sometimes people just get dropped by their agent, right?

Their agent is

Lisa Frenkel Riddiough: Yes.

Beth McMullen: to a new house and is only taking 10 of their writers, and 10 of them are going by the wayside. So there's lots of

different ways that you can lose an agent. So what would you tell writers who feel like losing an agent means it's just over? Their career is

over 

It's all over. 

Lisa Frenkel Riddiough: Mmhmm 

Beth McMullen: to them to make them feel less in despair?

Lisa Frenkel Riddiough: Well, I think I definitely felt that way for a minute. I mean, I, I was like, "Oh, my gosh, I... What, what, what am I... I can't believe this." You know, I felt that way for sure. 

Take Stock of Your Career

Lisa Frenkel Riddiough: But what I would tell somebody who's feeling that way, who's lost their agent for whatever reason I want you to look at the career you've already built.

Okay? I want you to look at the obvious things. You've published a book or two or, or you've at least written however [00:29:00] many manuscripts that you have. You've been out on... You know, if you've had an agent, you've most likely been out on submission. I want you to start listing all the things that you've already done.

The fact that you have an agent or had an agent is proof that you have built a career, right? Because you can't even get one unless you've done, you know, all these things. But I, what I did for myself is I was like, "Okay, let's assess this. I have published books. I have more manuscripts in my computer. I'm working on one right now.

I have built relationships with independent bookstore owners. I have you know, w- attended conferences a- and workshops to the point where I have been on faculty at a con..." You know, you've gotta start listing all the things, and then you start realizing, "Wait a minute, you can take the agent away from me, and I still have a career."

I have my s- you know, maybe you have a side gig or more than a side gig of editorial services or critique services or, like me, I mentor young [00:30:00] writers. That's a, that's more than a side gig. I mean, I, I... That is part of the career that I have built, and I had to really look at all the components of everything I've done over the past, let's call it 10 years.

You know, if you add in my schooling, my back-to-school time. I've built a career. And I remember one time, sitting in my office, I don't know when it was, a couple years ago, and I was like, "Oh, my gosh, I'm looking at a contract. I'm preparing for a book launch. I have another manuscript on submission. I'm doing a revision.

I'm helping my little 11-year-old mentee finish her novel." You know? I, I looked at all these things, and I thought, "Oh, my God, I have a full-time job." Who knew, right? Now, does my job pay like some of the full-time jobs I've had in the past? That's another conversation that we can have another time. But I think just looking at the career you've built, you've built one, and you just gotta remind yourself it's there whether [00:31:00] you have an agent or not.

Beth McMullen: And I think giving yourself a little bit of time to despair is totally fine.

And then you gotta, then you gotta just not let it pull you all the way down. You gotta

Lisa Frenkel Riddiough: Right

Beth McMullen: out of that. And I think that's a really good way to do at it. Pull back, look at the bigger picture. Look at everything that you've done to get to that point. I think also remember, you are definitely 100% not the first person who's ever had to part ways with an agent for any number of reasons

Publishing Lesson Embrace Mistakes

Lisa: Okay, so we are gonna jump into the final and biggest question, is what is the one thing that you have learned that has made you a stronger in this crazy career of publishing? Like, is there something that has been a big takeaway for you that you've like, "God, I've, this is what I've learned, and now I feel like I have a better handle on what I need to do moving forward"?

Lisa Frenkel Riddiough: Mm-hmm. You're not... This answer might surprise you. It kind of surprised me, actually, when I, when it came to mind, and it did come to [00:32:00] mind very quickly, and that is that it is okay to make mistakes. Like, I, there's a lot to talk about with, with that statement, but I feel like in the beginning, I tortured myself over every little mistake I made, whether it was something I actually said to someone and then I would repeat it over and over, "Why did I say that?

Oh, my God," you know, like, if it was an agent or an editor or somebody I saw in person or was on the phone with or whatever. I would just, just beat myself up. And then also, obviously, if I made a literal mistake in a document and still sent it anyway, or sent the wrong one, or filled out the query tracker form incorrectly, which I did and embarrassed myself.

Whatever it is, I can list all the 8 million mistakes we've made. I feel like that's the only, A, it's the only way we're learning, right? Obviously, we learn through our mistakes. But we've got to give ourselves more grace. Like, going, [00:33:00] having the years sort of stack up in th- in this industry, I've come to be okay with making a mistake and going, "Well, what, okay, whatever.

It's fine," because obviously, your editor is there to help you edit out the mistakes, right? So, it's kind of funny that we get so freaked out about possibly sending a manuscript that we should've changed the last chapter, or we should've done a different opening sentence, or I don't even know what. But I've, I, somehow or another, you know, publishing, it's in publishing as it is in life, you know, it's okay to make the mistake, and we're gonna look at it and go, "Oh, yeah.

Okay," and move on.

Beth McMullen: I love this answer too, because I think there's like a fire hose of information coming at people all the time,

Lisa Frenkel Riddiough: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm

Beth McMullen: you can pull up, just do a search of how to write a book, and you'll get a thousand different ways to do it.

[00:34:00] And if you don't know what you're doing, that, that fear of failure can really get in the way of you doing anything, right? And

It's okay to experiment. Assume you're gonna fail at something. It'd be

great if none of us failed at anything, but that's not reality. You're gonna mess stuff up.

I'm gonna mess stuff up, but if I don't do anything, then yeah, I won't mess stuff up, but I'll never have anything on the blank page. It'll just be the blank page.

Lisa Frenkel Riddiough: Yeah, this is true. Can I-

Lisa: the other thing, and I think of, and I, I want everyone who's in the query trenches to think about what Lisa said because I see so often people will post something like, "Oh, I made a mistake in the query letter," and you can see they're just absolutely traumatized by it. You know, "I, I didn't ... I put the wrong agent's name," or "I, I made a typo.

I sent, hit send and found a typo." And people get so worked up because they think it's the end for them because they've made a mistake. And we all have been there in the beginning but that's just not the case. Like, everyone you're participating with, you know, [00:35:00] the agents, whoever, they're all human. They all make mistakes too.

So it's just, if you're out there and you do make a mistake, you know, let it go.

Lisa Frenkel Riddiough: Mm-hmm.

Lisa: it go.

Lisa Frenkel Riddiough: Let it go. Exactly.

Lisa: my singing is.

Shout-Out and Final Wrap

Lisa Frenkel Riddiough: Can I say one thing that I just thought of that 

I,

should have mentioned before? Because I, I've been talking about how much I loved my my agent who retired, Jennifer Mattson, and I did love her so much, and I do. She's wonderful. But I also want to say that I'm so excited to begin working with my new agent, who is Amy Thrall Flynn of Aevitas Creative.

I just want to say that out, you know, put it on the podcast because I'm so excited,

Beth McMullen: was gonna ask you to say her name, but then I was like, "Wait, what if you are not to the point where you wanna say her name yet?" So I'm glad you gave her a shout-out.

Lisa Frenkel Riddiough: Yes, and giving her a shout-out.

Beth McMullen: She

sounds wonderful. I've heard about her secondhand through Lisa, so I think that's gonna be an amazing relationship, and we're super excited to see all your books out there, 

Lisa Frenkel Riddiough: thank you.

Beth McMullen: We are not gonna take up the rest of your day. We're gonna wrap up here. So [00:36:00] thank you so much for being here and sharing your experience with us. I know this is gonna resonate for people. There are so many people out there in the query trenches.

We hear from them often, so hopefully this gives everybody a little sense of, hope and light. So thank you again for coming on.

Lisa Frenkel Riddiough: Thank you for having me, Beth and Lisa. I'm a super fan, and I've been listening to Writers With Wrinkles while I'm at the gym, 'cause that's now my new thing, is trying to get myself in shape. But thank you, it was so fun. So fun to be here

Beth McMullen: And listeners, remember you can find out more about Lisa and her books by visiting our podcast notes and the blog at writerswithwrinkles.net. And then one more reminder, furious Turtle is out tomorrow, so go and buy it, and we will be back next time with an Ask Beth and Lisa episode.

So if you have questions, thoughts, feelings, please send them our way. One more thing, iron out the wrinkles here for free every week, and we'd love it if you can help us to keep doing that by leaving a review on Apple Podcasts. Two minutes, five stars. We won't tell anyone how easy it was. Just please [00:37:00] go and do it.

We will be forever grateful. And until next time, happy reading, writing, and listening.