10 Years of Rejection, 40 Books Later

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Beth McMullen: Hi friends, I'm Beth McMullen

lisa: And I'm Lisa Schmidt

Beth McMullen: And we're the co-hosts of Writers With Wrinkles. This is season five, episode 23, and today we're excited to welcome author Wendelin Van Draanen to the show. is an international award-winning, best-selling author of more than 30 novels, including her Edgar-winning Sammy Keyes mystery series, and Flipped, which became a Rob Reiner directed Warner Brothers feature film. Her latest novel is a first love romantasy titled Ghosted, which School Library Journal says captures the ache and wonder of love that transcends worlds. Ghosted releases October 6th. That sounds so good to me. If you're looking at the video of this, you can see the cover behind you there, which is It's bringing me What's the vampire series that was so

Wendelin Van Draanen: Oh, twilight

Beth McMullen: Yes. The cover is bringing me Twilight vibes

Wendelin Van Draanen: interesting. What I, I have recently seen the [00:01:00] finished cover for the book, which is coming out in October, and it is so awesome because they've given it a metallic finish. So if you tilt it one way it's all shiny silver, and if you tilt it another way, it's all shadowy darkness.

Beth McMullen: See?

Wendelin Van Draanen: Yeah.

Beth McMullen: great. 

Wendelin Van Draanen: Yeah.

Beth McMullen: just looking at the flat image and it looks amazing.

Wendelin Van Draanen: I'm so excited about this cover and about this book coming out. 

Beth McMullen: Good. Good. It sounds fantastic. So we know you. Lisa and I both know you through slightly different channels. You and I were on a book tour together a bunch of years ago with Chris Grabenstein, who's of course wonderful too. And Lisa met you at a book festival not that long ago, and when she said your name, I was like, "I know her.

We did a whole thing together." But you guys have some stories of the, the book festival, and I think that would be of interest to our listeners.

lisa: it's funny because I had... We had done that one episode about the whole escapades of the book festival that I did, and it was my first book [00:02:00] festival. And there was all the drama surrounding it, and it involved this one indie bookstore. And so then I get an email from Wendelin who was like, "Oh my God, I was there. I'm sure you have PTSD just like I do from it." And she had gone through, she had the exact same experience with this bookseller. And one of the things I just have to interject, because I have an addendum to the story that recently happened that just adds insult to injury. But I remember when I was leaving, I saw a line to go see you, and all I can think of, like, when you said that, she had done the same thing to you about not carrying your book and, storming out and leaving the book festival, is that I was like, "Oh my God, she missed out on all those sales."

Wendelin Van Draanen: Yeah

lisa: Like, why would you do that to yourself? Anyway, but I digress. You must have been thinking the same thing.

Wendelin Van Draanen: A- and Avid Reader Davis is the bookstore that came to the [00:03:00] rescue, and they found out that this other bookstore that was supposed to be carrying my books w- brought in one copy, and they overnighted two cartons of them, and I think they sold them all. So

lisa: Yeah, that's amazing. So if anybody needs to hear the whole story, go back and listen to the episode.

Wendelin Van Draanen: It's a great story.

lisa: I've never been paid or reimbursed for the, the books that she sold, that I brought my own inventory. Never been paid, and at this point I'm just like, "You know what?"

I've written it off and I just don't even wanna mess with it anymore. so then all of a sudden I get this email out of the blue about I have a book that this bookstore... 'Cause she had taken one copy of one of my books and said, "I think I can sell this." And I'm like, "Fi- just take it, whatever." And so I guess she decided that she didn't wanna sell it, and so somebody had gone, and it happened to my friend too, like they, she had given her a few copies or whatever. So then all of a sudden we get this email saying "I [00:04:00] have a copy of your book from books, and to return to you. If you want it, you can meet me in Sacramento or s- somewhere in Folsom."

And I'm just thinking so now I have to go to get a copy of my book like a drug deal in a parking lot?" Like, why? I'm cracking up. I'm like, "You know what? Please just put it in a Little Free Library some place."

Wendelin Van Draanen: Yeah

lisa: But I just thought that just adds the insult to injury. It's just my God, woman, just sell the book or just keep it in the shop before, I... That's,

Beth McMullen: Yeah,

Wendelin Van Draanen: It's

Beth McMullen: are we still talking about this, right? Like, why are we still having a conversation about a single book

Wendelin Van Draanen: Because it's been, what, four months?

lisa: Yes 

Wendelin Van Draanen: this thing has just dragged on and on. But I tell you what, it's been really good for authors bonding, because all of us have the same experience, and it's given us appreciation for each other and what we put up with sometimes.

When it goes well, it goes really well, and oh, when it goes bad, oh, [00:05:00] wow. Although, I have to say, for all the years that I've been doing this, I've never had an experience this bad

Beth McMullen: That's meaningful. If the bar wa- a new bar was set that

Wendelin Van Draanen: Yeah.

Beth McMullen: lo- that's bad.

Wendelin Van Draanen: It's at ground level. That bar is at ground level. You can't go any lower than that

Beth McMullen: Yeah, it was bad.

lisa: That's so good, and why we share these, is because so many times, I'll see authors post something about, "I was at an event and nobody showed," or, "They didn't have my books," and this and that. And we all feel so isolated that these are just, these things are just happening to us.

No, they're happening to all of

Wendelin Van Draanen: Right

lisa: so if you have a situation where it's not going as planned or you're having just something unpleasant, just know you're not alone.

Wendelin Van Draanen: And the thing about online presence is y- we all try to put our best foot forward, and we all try and to, t- to do this, the optimistic sunny look. And sometimes when you're not having an optimistic sunny day and you see [00:06:00] an author posting an optimistic sunny post again, you just feel like, "Ugh."

So it's good to also share the things that maybe didn't go so well. So

lisa: Yeah. Just listen to our show. We talk about him all the time.

Beth McMullen: Yeah, it's the primary thing that people reach out about. Because we are so concerned about presenting this put together, professional, got it all going on, personality onto social media and videos and whatever, and then in the background you're like, "Wow, they wanted me to drive 25 miles to pick up one book." It's crazy

lisa: they were so nice, and this was somebody who's in the organization. They were doing this as a favor. This wasn't, this was somebody nice who's like, "Yeah I went and got this book, your book, and I want to return it to you." And I don't expect them to drive to my house, they were being nice.

Wendelin Van Draanen: Right

lisa: on the book festival people. This is on that person.

Wendelin Van Draanen: Yeah

lisa: and yeah. It's just funny

Beth McMullen: I will say that Avid [00:07:00] Reader Davis is my home indie. I actually live in Davis, California, and they're great. I've done a ton of events with them over the years, and they have never screwed up. So cheers to them. That's the silver lining. For

Wendelin Van Draanen: I

Beth McMullen: Stinker of a store, there's one that's really amazing

Wendelin Van Draanen: I always thought a lot of Avid Reader Davis, but the best thing that could happen to them is the comparison between what they are and the alt- the alternate.

Beth McMullen: Yes.

Wendelin Van Draanen: Because in contrast, it's oh my gosh, this bookstore is wonderful, 

lisa: they were awesome, and they sold some of my books because I was, as like hawking my books all around, trying to figure out what to do with them. And yeah, they sent me a check within days. 

Wendelin Van Draanen: Yeah

lisa: they were amazing, and yeah, just that's the kind of business owner you wanna be

Beth McMullen: Yeah, and their store is always packed people know they do a good job. Okay, we could dish about bo- book festivals and how they go sideways all day [00:08:00] long. But let's get into some some good questions you. I think we are excited to have you here 'cause you have written so many books.

30, more than 30. What's the actual total

Wendelin Van Draanen: So G- Ghosted is number 40.

Beth McMullen: Number 40.

Wendelin Van Draanen: Number 40 and it's my 30th year, so it f- it feels like, wow. I used to be the new kid, and then I just work work. I am j- I don't know if it's my immigrant parent upbringing but I'm very much a nose to the grindstone kind of person. And so when I have something that I've started I will just work on it until I finish it, and then I have this lull where I miss writing for two weeks while I clean the house.

No wonder. And then I'll start on something else. So I just, I've just been writing consistently and pretty much constantly for 30 years

Beth McMullen: Wow

lisa: does it take [00:09:00] you to write a book on the average?

Wendelin Van Draanen: So like Ghosted, it was in my head for 10 years, and I didn't know how to end it. So the writing, the actual writing when you sit down at your keyboard and start producing words, that's really not representative of how long it takes to write a novel because it's all that thinking that you've done to create the whole vibe of the story and what's gonna happen.

And so for Ghosted, it's been like 10 years on a back burner trying to come up with an ending that I liked. And once I hit the ending, once I thought of the ending, then I got to work. And it takes me about diligent work, takes me about nine months to a year to write a, 300-page novel, and then I revise as I go.

But then I do the revision afterwards, which takes quite a bit of, months and months as well before I send it in.

Beth McMullen: Do you ever have two going at the same time?[00:10:00] 

Wendelin Van Draanen: No.

Beth McMullen: you...

Wendelin Van Draanen: i'm like yeah I need to... i'm in the story. My emotions are in the story. My whole brain power goes into the story and so it's, it would be distracting the way that my brain works. It's like I'm all in, so no

Beth McMullen: So let's talk a little bit first about the Sammy Keyes books. Those are your Edgar-winning award mystery series. And I've actually read a bunch of those. They are wonderful.

Wendelin Van Draanen: Thank you

Beth McMullen: it, I think you must have said somewhere, 'cause I found this fact, that you wrote four of them before a publisher said, "Yes, we wanna have these." What kept you going through those rejections? Because a lot of times people will write one, maybe two of a series that they've conceived, and if nobody's saying yes, they move on to something else, or they abandon it or give up all hope or whatever it is. So what kept you going through that?

Wendelin Van Draanen: I just loved spending time with Sammy. she's like the [00:11:00] friend that I wish I'd had when I was in middle school. And I was at this time also a full-time teacher. Just being immersed in the whole school situation as a teacher helps remind you of what it was like as a student and a growing teen, and just how hard that can be, how emotionally wrecked you can be.

And so I wrote the first one, and I was sure somebody would love it in New York. It has a very much a California sensibility to it because I'm- I live in California. And so before they could send me rejections, I had already started on the second one. And when the rejections came in for the first one I'm like, "Oh wait till you read this, and then you're gonna understand what I'm doing."

And so I finished the second one, but I had an idea for a third one. So while I was waiting for them to say yes, 'cause of course they were gonna love this story I had this third idea, and so I wrote that. And then when they got back to me with the rejections about the second one, I'm like, "But wait [00:12:00] till you read this.

And then I sent the third and wrote the fourth. And so this all takes time. Full-time job, two little kids, just getting up super early in the morning to write a little bit on a story and just... so there was that process of...

So I was naive, but there was also the feeling that we call it putting hope in the mail. It's like, "Okay, I've sent this next thing, so maybe I'm filled with the hope of an idea that you will actually like this, and, I'll wear you down and..." And so that's that's part of what kept me going, and it was just I really loved the character, and I loved spending time with her.

And I think that it wasn't a chore for me to do these stories. It was more like, oh, I get to escape into Sammy Keyes' world and spend some time battling Heather Acosta and just working out my middle school drama on the page. It was just a kind of a joyful thing. And I just kept at it long enough for to get my, to get a yes.[00:13:00] 

lisa: Who ended up picking it up? What happened that you finally got the book deal?

Wendelin Van Draanen: You need to find someone who sees the world the way you do, and maybe understands your sense of humor and your irreverence, or whatever it is that you're putting on the page. And so I found that person at, Her name's Nancy Sisko, and she was the editor for the entire Sammy Keyes series.

And we have had so many great laughs together just about Sammy. It's like we grew up together in publishing. She was, when I first sent the first thing to her, she was an associate editor, so she wasn't a full-blown editor. But she had some publishing successes and became a full-on editor.

And now she's climbed up the corporate ladder, so she's in a pretty high position now. So I, and we say, we grew up together in publishing because she took a risk on me. And that worked out for both of us.

lisa: Oh, that's

Beth McMullen: Which...

lisa: does pay

Beth McMullen: [00:14:00] Which book did they end up to buy? Was it that fourth one, or was it the, were you saying, "Here's all of them," at that point? I'm just curious if you had, it was the fourth one that they were like, "Yeah, this has got legs."

Wendelin Van Draanen: So this editor one d- she had read the first one, the second one. I had fed them to her in a row, and she was trying, because her position I think her acquisition ability w- wasn't where it needed to be for her to purchase this yet. She really wanted to. She was really into mystery.

And then she wound up having big success with another book that allowed her to switch publishing houses. And when she switched publishing houses, she was, she said they let her do what she wanted to do, and she said, "I want to buy all four of these Sammy Keyes books." And with the option to write more.

So we have 18 books in this [00:15:00] series. And the Sammy Keyes characters evolve from book to book. She grows up a month at a time from book to book, which people ask me how'd you write 18?" And it's because I was just following her through her life.

So things evolve, characters evolve, relationships change and they all grow. And that was really, I think, instrumental in me keeping it fresh, and keeping it fresh for me to write as opposed to, "Oh gosh, I'm under contract to write another Sammy Keyes." No, it wasn't like, it was never like that. It was like, "I can't wait to get back to Sammy Keyes."

Beth McMullen: I love that convention of one month, one month of growth or time, timeline shift per book. Because you think about if you had started off and said, "I'm gonna make it six months or a year," you never could have done 18 of

Wendelin Van Draanen: Right

Beth McMullen: were you thinking in terms of I'm gonna write 18 of these books, or were you just thinking that lets [00:16:00] me stay with her really

Wendelin Van Draanen: It was an accident. It was a com- it was a complete ac- like I said, I was naive, okay? So in Sammy world, this happens the, Sammy Keyes and the Hotel Thief happens the first week of seventh grade. And so the next book, so that's, September-ish. And then we have October, which is Halloween, and so much fun.

And so they, her- she and her friends do this stuff on Halloween. There's a big mystery and, thrill. And then the next month after that is there's Thanksgiving, so in her life, what's happening on Thanksgiving. So it just evolved that way. 

And the fourth book was a Christmas book, and I'm like, "Oh, she's growing up a month at a time from book to book, and what's it gonna take to get her out of middle school?" So that's gonna be a good 18 books. 

lisa: You know

Wendelin Van Draanen: I thought I could just do that. I, it's, the way it was contracted wasn't, "Oh, Wendelin, we're gonna sign you up for 18 books."

It was "We'll do it two at a time, see how it goes," and so we do the two, [00:17:00] and then we do two more, and so that's how we got to 18.

Beth McMullen: Amazing

lisa: just talking about this with a friend the other day, how often there's so much serendipity with writing. Things that you don't really plan, but then they work out for you. Planning that, but somehow you set it up that way, and it's, that's just serendipity, you just, you weren't meaning to, but look at how well it worked out

Wendelin Van Draanen: Yeah. It's really true. When I started, I just was gonna write a mystery. But then I'm really glad. Sammy was the kind of g- of kid I just really loved spending time with

lisa: So what changed once that clicked for you? Was, what evolved from that?

Wendelin Van Draanen: So the blessing of not getting picked up right away by a publisher was that I did get to figure out what I was doing. So four books in you realize, oh, th- this [00:18:00] has to happen with the mother. This has to be the situation with these friends. This is her, Scooby gang. 

So what I did is I went back to the first one and I shored up everything. So by the time the Sammy Keyes and the Hotel Thief came out, it had the benefit of me knowing Sammy world much better, and being able to reinforce things that would happen later in the series based on that I had already written more in the series.

And also they were able to establish it as a series quickly because instead of one a year, they c- they came out every six months at the beginning. And then it was, I was on a schedule of every nine months the next one would come out to, and you're only in middle school for three years or so and so when you have books coming out you lose your readers.

They grow up, right? So you need to keep moving forward at a pace where the new readers can catch up 

lisa: Did you ever feel [00:19:00] pressure? That's a lot to write, in that, that nine-month period. Were you feeling pressure with it, 

Wendelin Van Draanen: So I always loved coming back to Sammy. But when I say that, what that implies is that I was doing other stuff. And besides being a full-time teacher, and besides raising these two little kids, and, keeping house, and doing all those things, I would get an idea. So I got the idea for Flipped, and Flipped became this obsession for me, where I just had this, what I thought was a very clever idea, where the boy gets a chapter, the girl gets a chapter, and they tell their perspectives of the same events.

I became obsessed with writing this story, and I had to write it in a timeframe that allowed me to meet my Sammy Keyes deadline. I didn't have a contract for Flipped. I had an idea that I just buckled down and wrote, and then I sent it to the editor of the Sammy Keyes, and got back to work on Sammy Keyes.

So then that, that's a [00:20:00] standalone book that came out. And then I went ... So I write another Sammy Keyes, and then I went and did school visits, like in Birmingham, Alabama, and I had this idea for this book. "Swear to howdy," was an expression that they used in during this very extensive school visit time that I spent there.

And so I became obsessed. I need to write this story be- before the next Sammy. Okay. So I wrote this book. No contract. I just had to get this story out, and I sent it to my editor, and then I got back to Sammy Keyes. But so when I say it, it was always so nice to get back to Sammy Keyes, I think what the situation really was is that I got to write something else, so I got a break from it, and so it's like a friend.

"Oh, I haven't seen you in a while. Come on, let's chat." So you get back together with them. And so that's how I wound up with 40 books in 30 years. So I'm a little obsessive, and [00:21:00] but also having the deadline for the Sammy Keyes made me fit these other books which were not under contract.

I just wrote them because I loved the idea, and I wanted to get it out of me. 

Beth McMullen: It creates a nice structure to have that, that actual deadline,

You can self-impose a deadline because you know you only have so much bandwidth to do this thing, to do this idea, because you've gotta get back to the one that the editor is sitting there waiting for.

Wendelin Van Draanen: Right

Beth McMullen: And you're obviously a very disciplined writer. That's what kinda comes through at the bottom of this. You have gotta be amazingly disciplined to be able to say, "I've got this idea, I've got this amount of time to get it out. I'm getting it out, done. 

Wendelin Van Draanen: Yeah

Beth McMullen: I'm contracted for."

Wendelin Van Draanen: So we wanna bottle some of that and sell it, if you don't mind. Just I don't know. I always go back to my parents and, there was always work to do, so

Beth McMullen: Yes, it has served you very well. You mentioned Flipped. That became a Rob Reiner film.

Wendelin Van Draanen: Yes

Beth McMullen: so [00:22:00] we love to talk about books to movies. What surprised you the most about handing your precious little story, your little baby, we are very attached to our books, over to somebody else to tell their version of it, and how much say did you have, if any, in that process?

Wendelin Van Draanen: So I'm gonna back up and share that I had a previous movie experience with my book Shredder Man. Nickelodeon turned it into their first made for TV movie and that was a fun experience. I got to take my kids down to where they were filming it, and they had been a fan of the actor who stars in 

Declassified School Survival Guide. And he was the star of Shredder Man, and so they got to meet him and that was all super fun. The process for that was that the first part of the movie that they did was pretty close to the book, and the second half [00:23:00] was completely Hollywood.

It was so different than the book. And I learned to separate my creation from their adaptation, and I think there's a certain amount of grace involved in allowing people who make movies. They know their audience. They know what they're doing. I'm not gonna micromanage them, but it's hard.

Okay? It's hard to see it changed that much. So I had already had that experience, and I had already learned the grace that you need for an adaptation and knowing what you get into So when Rob Reiner called me and discussed turning "Flipped" into a movie, he said all the right things. He said, "I read the book."

Okay, that's not something you hear a lot from people in Hollywood. "I read the book. I loved the book. Why would I mess with a book?" These are... This is what he said. [00:24:00] And he asked me a- about what I thought about certain things. He wanted to know how I felt about setting it in the '50s and '60s, where I had written it as a more contemporary story.

He gave me his reasons for that, and I thought, "You need to have grace about this. It's okay." It turns out that his doing that has actually been really beneficial for the film because it made it what people call an instant classic. So instead of trying to keep up with the cell phone of the times and feeling dated because, the characters are dialing instead of tapping or whatever he set it back far enough that he didn't have to deal with any of that.

So it's like a period piece. So that was the big change. And then he sent me the script, and the script was just like the book. The dialogue straight out of the book. It was just like the book, [00:25:00] including the ending, which I'd been getting fan mail for years about the ending of Flipped.

And I love the ending of Flipped. It's just this wonderful, hopeful the future is wide open to these two kids and, love is-- love awaits. Not so much from my readers who are demanding a sequel. And I write them all back and I explain about the hopeful the bright sunshine of the future.

But they have their issues. So I had been writing them back and I'd been telling them that Hollywood was gonna make a movie out of it, and I'm sure they would do the Hollywood thing to it, which is change the ending and have... Basically what these, these kids all want is to see Bryce and Julie kiss.

And it alludes to that at the end of the book, but it's not there. And when I read the script and it's just like the book, I'm like, "This can't be." So I make an appointment

Beth McMullen: [00:26:00] trouble.

Wendelin Van Draanen: I made an appointment with Rob Reiner, and I drove down to LA, and I had a meeting with him, and basically, I was there to to convey the thoughts from readers across America about this.

And so what I said is, "I have an idea. You could have the credits going by." 'Cause the whole point is that these two characters need to get to know each other and know themselves before they become entwined emotionally, right? That's good advice for all of us. So I said, "What you can do is having Bryce and Julie, era things, like riding bikes and flying kites and getting to know each other, and da, while the credits roll by.

So after the end of the movie, you have this going on, and the credits are rolling by, and then at the very end, you can have the two characters kiss. Because that's what kids across America wanna see." So he listened very nicely, and then went out and did precisely what he wanted, which was stick [00:27:00] to the book.

So how many authors can say they've had this kind of experience? Not very many. He was, like, a, just an amazing director. I got to spend time on location in Michigan, where they filmed it, and he was so good with the kids. He was just amazing. 

Beth McMullen: Yeah, I'm sorry. He seemed like such a wonderful man, and that was just an enormous tragedy all around. He was so talented with your film and all of his other films. They all have that real genuine empathy coming through.

Wendelin Van Draanen: Yeah.

Beth McMullen: What a terrible loss.

Wendelin Van Draanen: Yeah

Beth McMullen: Wonderful you have this movie.

Wendelin Van Draanen: I do.

Beth McMullen: You have that piece. 

Wendelin Van Draanen: I feel so fortunate that he w- he was the one that... Because it had been optioned before many times. it's yes until it's no. In books, it's no until it's yes. So just if you're a writer and someone who has been getting a lot of nos, know [00:28:00] that when they say yes, they really mean it.

And unlike Hollywood, w- th- it's all behind it. They're all for it. They're all like yes. We'll do this thing." No, we can't. So the fact that I have had two properties turned into movies, I recognize that's like the stars have aligned for me twice. And with the whole Rob Reiner and Flipped project it's an experience that I will never duplicate.

Beth McMullen: And I just treasure that I've had this really wonderful expansion to my work because now, I get the most wonderful communications from people, like in China and the Philippines, and just everywhere. And it says so much about him that he kept it the way

Wendelin Van Draanen: Yeah.

Beth McMullen: i've had a, a bunch of my stuff optioned. Nothing has ever made it past that enthusiastic yes to no.

Wendelin Van Draanen: Yeah

Beth McMullen: but I remember one conversation where this young director was like, "I have the greatest idea," and then was like, the only thing they were gonna keep was the title.

Wendelin Van Draanen: Yeah

Beth McMullen: [00:29:00] remove yourself as the person who's gonna direct this movie to, enough to get out of the way of the work that has already resonated so much 

Wendelin Van Draanen: Right

Beth McMullen: that shows a lot of confidence. 

Wendelin Van Draanen: Yeah. And I think that it is a very common situation where the author just feels a little chagrined at how things turned out, and I feel really fortunate to have none of that. Even with Shredder Man I'm saying it's its own thing. It's fun. Kids really liked it at the time, so you know, that says something right there

Beth McMullen: Yes. Yes, absolutely

lisa: So jumping, we're gonna jump back to books now.

Wendelin Van Draanen: Yeah.

lisa: and you've published your entire career with Knopf. Knopf, is that right?

Wendelin Van Draanen: Oh, they say the Kanae. They, it's Knopf, yeah.

Beth McMullen: ja

lisa: Okay, Knopf. So you've published your entire career with Knopf and Random House imprints. What's kept that relationship [00:30:00] working over the last two decades?

Beth McMullen: So my, my latest two books The Steps and Ghosted, are distributed by Random House, but they are published by Holiday House. wow 

Wendelin Van Draanen: all the other books prior to that are and a picture book that's coming out in January, are all through Knopf, and the common denominator and the reason for that is my editor there.

She's the one that we grew up in publishing together. So I would say that having that relationship with her has been the reason that so much of my work has been there

Beth McMullen: It feels really rare these days, doesn't it? It feels rare to have somebody go book after book with the same because the editors move around a lot

Wendelin Van Draanen: Right

Beth McMullen: the imprint folds or somebody, absorbs the whole bunch of them.

Wendelin Van Draanen: Yeah.

Beth McMullen: pretty unusual

Wendelin Van Draanen: And again, I do I do count my blessings about this because I know it is rare, and I really [00:31:00] treasure my relationship with Nancy. It's, it's been ... Like I said, we grew up in publishing together, and I just feel like she's a lifelong friend. So but publishing has done a lot of changing over the years, and there has been compression after compression, and it's a different situation now than it was when, S- Sammy Keyes got started.

It hasn't ... I think publishing hasn't gotten any easier

lisa: No. Your, this

Beth McMullen: Now

lisa: feels very old school, and it reminds me when... 'Cause that's, this is so unheard of. I've never, I don't think I've ever talked to anybody who stayed with an editor their... you have a prolific career, and you've stayed with this person. But that sounds like something from a movie, where you see,

Wendelin Van Draanen: Well

lisa: "I'm meeting my editor in New York," and she's "Where's the next chapter?"

So she is amazing, but also I tried for 10 years to get [00:32:00] published, and she's the one that fished me out of the slush pile. And a- after I won the Edgar and I get there's a big buzz about me and all that stuff, I could have gone elsewhere with my other books. I could have said, "I've got the Santis with Nancy, and I'm just gonna go see how much money I can get elsewhere," because I could have gotten some good money.

Wendelin Van Draanen: And after Flip came out and was such a huge success, I could have just gone to my agent and said, "See how much you can get somewhere else." But I feel like you need to dance with the one who brought you. So she and I have been doing this dance for many years and I I just have never felt that...

I was in a limousine once with a very well published

novelist of the middle-grade variety, and 

lisa: I love your careful choice of words.

Wendelin Van Draanen: he informed me that it's a business. You gotta look out for yourself. Y- you gotta look out for number one da. And there is some truth to that. It is a [00:33:00] business, and you have to be, you have to acknowledge that th- these publishing houses are no- are not there, are no longer there to nurture your ego.

They are there to make a profit. It doesn't have to be a huge profit, but they're there to make a profit, and it's- it's a business. So there is some truth to that advice, but I just think that for me as a person, it's the wrong advice. It's that, it- it's like in my stories, it's about the characters.

Even though Sammy Keyes stories are mysteries and they're adventure books, it's really about the relationships between friends. And so I feel like I need to live my life in a way that that I present in my books where friendship is important. And even if it's partly business or even if there's this definite business component to it, the the friendship, the things that you've built together, the things that this editor has helped you [00:34:00] achieve, it's not all you.

It's your partnership with your silent partner, the editor, and you need to respect that and not just toss it aside and think, "Okay, I'm hot stuff now, and I'm gonna go get more money elsewhere." I, I just, that's just not me

Beth McMullen: It kind of mirrors how you tell the story about how this editor had a success and then went somewhere else, and then was given the, the red carpet treatment, whatever you want, and you're what she wanted. So there's that, those choices for both of you. She chose you when she had success, and you chose to stay with her when you had

success.

Wendelin Van Draanen: Yeah, 

Beth McMullen: have beautiful author-editor stories, so

Wendelin Van Draanen: yeah

Beth McMullen: So you mentioned hope in the mail a little bit earlier as just the idea that when we drop our stuff off into the universe and it goes out, we have this little bit of hope.

But you also wrote a book that came out in 2020. [00:35:00] I saw it called similar to Bird by Bird, the Anne Lamott book for YA readers and writers, and it's part memoir, part writing guide. So what made you want to tell your own story alongside of craft advice instead of just doing like a straight... So what made you take that, that two-pronged approach?

Wendelin Van Draanen: I think it's because in my 10 years of rejection there had to be something that kept me going. And because y- you wanna hang in there long enough to get that yes. And very often we become discouraged, or we turn to alternate avenues of publication. We just feel like it's just too hard, and there are too many barriers, 

We just lose our fire for sticking to the plan. And having been someone who, who kind of walks in the shoes of a lot of [00:36:00] people who are emerging writers, where you've got a family that you're trying to, pay good attention to. Maybe you've got an outside job that requires a lot of your time and energy.

And how do you fit writing into your life? So how you fit it into your life, I think, is just as important as the craft because the craft you can learn, but fi- the finding of the time and t- and the the encouragement that you get from reading a book like Hope in the Mail will propel you to become a better writer, a more a more diligent writer.

Someone who pursues with a consistency this dream that they have. So it's... H- Hope in the Mail is just it... My intention for it is just to encourage people who don't have the luxury of, wide-open days or, yeah, just to find the discipline to stick to it long enough to reach that goal, [00:37:00] whatever it is that you've set for yourself.

And that's the whole concept is it's you need to generate the work, and then you need to put it out there so someone can say yes to you. And every time you put something out there for, it's a vulnerable feeling. This is your heart you've put on the page.

And people might c- just totally ignore it. They might come back and criticize it somehow. They, there are gonna be all sorts of negativity coming back at you, unless you are the exception. And so if that's the case, we need to find some way to keep hope in our heart. And so my advice is you just, you need to keep putting hope in the mail, metaphorically, email, whatever so that you have hope in your heart that someone can say yes to you

Beth McMullen: It's, that's like perfect advice, right? Because you need the... and keep sending it out there. Because you're 100% right.

If it's not out there, no one can ever say yes.

Wendelin Van Draanen: And giving little tips for how to work that [00:38:00] in or how you can juggle it all, or just that, that becoming a finisher and what that means to you a- as a writer. Because I think lots of times we start on something, we get discouraged, we'll start on something else, and I think it's super important to f- to find the the mechanism to become a finisher

Beth McMullen: Yes. That is something I have struggled with my whole career. Even when I think I've got it it under control, I still have that moment where I'm like, "Wait a minute, you can't start that yet. You're not done with that."

Wendelin Van Draanen: Okay.

Beth McMullen: so thank you again for coming. We are very grateful. I know our listeners are gonna love this episode

Wendelin Van Draanen: We actually do religiously listen to it. Mark is my husband Mark is also a YA writer, and so for lunch, 'cause we just, this is all we do. So at lu- at our little lunch break, we'll have lunch, we'll do a hand of rummy, and we'll listen to you guys.

So we multitask. See, that's how we make the most of [00:39:00] each day. So we'll listen

Beth McMullen: love this image.

Wendelin Van Draanen: So that's what we do. We eat, we play rummy, and we listen to Writers With Wrinkles.

Beth McMullen: gosh, that is so wonderful. So say thank you to Mark from us as well. 

Wendelin Van Draanen: Okay.

Beth McMullen: So listeners, remember you can find out more about Wendelin and all that she is up to by visiting our podcast notes and the blog at writerswithwrinkles.net. Ghosted is out October 6th, but it is up for pre-order now. So go and reserve your copy so you don't miss out when it releases. I'm very excited for this one. I just love the story. So I'm getting mine.

Wendelin Van Draanen: Thank you

Beth McMullen: next time with an Ask Beth and Lisa episode, so if you have questions, thoughts, feelings, please send them our way. And until next time, happy reading, writing, and listening