How a Thriller Writer Wrote a Cozy Mystery in Four Weeks

Dina Santorelli: Writers With Wrinkles Podcast Interview

[00:00:00] 

Beth McMullen: Hi, friends. I'm Beth McMullen

lisa: And I'm Lisa Schmidt

Beth McMullen: And if there's one thing we know, it's how much work goes into getting a book out into the world, and we think that work deserves to be celebrated. So welcome to the Confetti Club. This is a new Writers With Wrinkles segment where we give a little extra love to authors and their brand-new books. Because publishing a book deserves a little fanfare and, of course, a whole lot of confetti, 'cause that's how we roll here at Writers With Wrinkles. And today we are welcoming Dina Santorelli, who writes under the pen name of Dina Marie. And Dina is an award-winning novelist who has been obsessed with all things ghosts since forever. Married on Halloween, she likes vacationing in spooky cities and visiting cemeteries and haunted hotels. Our recent visit to Salem, Massachusetts inspired her Salem Spirits Series, [00:01:00] which she wrote in part for her mom, a lover of Cozy Mystery TV. We also want to say that Dina has willingly to be our guinea pig, so thank you so much for showing up and helping us launch this new segment. We're super excited about it.

Dina Marie: Oh, thank you so much for having me. Thank you. I'm excited

lisa: So

I think everyone knows that I had gone through a phase where I was gonna write a cozy mystery. I'm out of that phase. I'm back to middle grade.

I don't know if that's been announced yet. Da-da-da-da. So but anyway, while during that timeframe, I discovered your books. Oh, and wait, hold on. For all those at home that y- you can't see these, obviously,

Dina Marie: Oh my gosh. Thank you

lisa: up three of your books, which I just love this series. I just ordered the fourth one. And it's

Dina Marie: Oh my gosh

lisa: a fun series. And so I'm here to celebrate you. I even wore my ghost book shirt to celebrate you. 

Dina Marie: Gosh, thank you. I feel underdressed.

lisa: So I'm dying to hear how you came up with the idea, and [00:02:00] also William.

We need to talk about William. So

Dina Marie: Yeah, he's a bit of a hunk.

lisa: Yeah. I'm like, "Is this gonna be like a Ghost and Mrs. Muir thing where they end up together?" So

Dina Marie: it's funny. It's... I'm sorry, go ahead

lisa: No, go ahead.

Dina Marie: It's interesting. As you mentioned, I had gone to Salem, Massachusetts with my husband in the fall of 2023, and we just went because, as, as you also mentioned, we like to visit these haunted cities like Savannah and New Orleans, and we had never been to Salem, Massachusetts.

And I had no intention of making it a work or a business trip. It was purely personal and for fun. And then a couple of months later, I went to a publishing conference, and I was sitting there listening to all these amazing authors talk, and I started thinking about my author career, and I've always been a thriller girl through and through, and but I started thinking about maybe going in a different direction.

[00:03:00] And it's funny that you mention a possible paranormal romance between William and Clara Kelly, who's my main character, because that was my original intention. I originally conceived of the Salem Spirits series as a paranormal romance. And so I came home from the conference, and I finished some thriller books I was working on, and then January of the following year, I thought to myself, "Okay, I'm gonna start this new project.

It's gonna be this experiment, and I'm gonna do a paranormal romance." And I had already in- I had already come up with the concept of Salem Spirits, of Clara Kelly running away from her life in New York and running away from this abusive situation she found herself in, and running to Salem, Massachusetts and, holing up in this historic mansion where she happens to find the ghost of a Civil War Union soldier living there.

So that was all established. I had thought of that pretty much almost on the [00:04:00] fly when I was at the conference. So I sat down. I thought, "Okay, I'm gonna write this, this r- this paranormal romance," and then- For whatever reason, it just wasn't working. I, I w- was struggling. I wasn't sure where the story was going, and I said to myself, "What am I going to do?"

And so I think what it comes down to is although there are some romantic elements in my thrillers I think that I'm just not a good romance writer. I think that's, there's... i'm in awe of romance authors and th- they're, they do so well. But th- there's something about that genre that, I don't know I think what it was I was interested in following this relationship between Clara and William like long-term.

And romance books generally have a happily ever after at the end of every book, and I was more interested in seeing this relationship go beyond a book and, extend into a series, whether that's six books, 12 books, 18 [00:05:00] books. And so I thought to myself I really love this concept. What am I going to do?"

And I decided that I was really interested in William's backstory and the backstory of other paranormal entities and maybe that would go well with a cozy mystery series. And so I thought, "Okay, let me see what I can do by turning this into a cozy mystery." So I ended up writing book one, Going Ghost, of this new series in, within four weeks, which told me...

and not only that, I think what surprised me the most about this series was how much I enjoyed writing it. I, like I said, I thought I was this thriller girl through and through, and here I was writing this very light, very fun series with no mur- with no violence, I should say, on the page, and no sex or profanity on the page.

And I just found that I loved it, and I had a knack for it. It's funny, as I was preparing for this interview, I was looking back at some some things I jotted [00:06:00] down during that time when I was conceiving this series, and I wrote three things. I wrote, for this experiment, I thought, number one, see if I like it.

Number two, see if I'm good at it, and three, see if readers like it too. And I think I was most surprised by how much I loved writing this. And so I decided right there, I was like, "Okay, this, I think this is working. I'm gonna turn this into a cozy mystery series," and that's all where it started. And then the chaos began.

lisa: You know what's funny is that I really, for people who are wondering "Is this something I'm gonna like?" it very much, it's The Ghost and Mrs. Muir meets Murder, She Wrote. And that's the perfect combo for it. That is

Dina Marie: I can see that, yes

lisa: It totally is that, And the romance between them is it's very light, and you know it can't really go anywhere, but I like the rules that you've applied to him, where he can [00:07:00] actually do things physically. Like the first time he did something, moving something or, I think working on her shoes or whatever, I was like, "Oh my God, I've never seen somebody do that," and I thought that was a really interesting choice. I'm like, "Good for that." And then I thought, "Wait a minute. He can physically do things?

Dina Marie: It's interesting it takes time for ghosts to learn that, right? So the longer that these ghosts hang around on Earth, the more time they have to develop those fine motor skills with physical objects. So in each cozy mystery when unfortunately somebody is murdered, these n- these newfound ghosts can't do anything.

They can't sit. They can't open doors. They can't go through doors or walls. So that's something they have to learn over time

Beth McMullen: I love that detail. Those world-building rules, and how wonderful that you sat down and wrote it in four weeks.

Dina Marie: Four weeks

Beth McMullen: I think that [00:08:00] is, like, all the info you need on the fact that you made the right choice to

Dina Marie: I hope so.

Beth McMullen: idea for this and go down this path. Because that feeling of being in the zone like that, 'cause you were definitely in the zone to bang out a whole book in a short amount of time that feels good, doesn't it?

Dina Marie: Yeah, and you know what's really interesting is I still write thrillers. Last year I came out with my, my latest thriller, a psychological thriller, and I think writing this cozy series actually helped inform my thriller writing in a new way, which I wanna... I've been a thriller writer I'd say for about 12 years now, maybe even more than that.

No, about 14 years, and I don't wanna say that my career had gotten stagnant, but I definitely feel like it needed just like a little bit of juice or something to ig- you know, set it off in a new direction, and I feel like this series did that. By, by trying something new, I, reignited something that was old in a sense[00:09:00] 

Beth McMullen: Yeah, and not feeling like you had to cram this really good idea that you got that made you excited to write into the preexisting box, right? Allowing yourself to get out of the thriller box for a minute and do this as something totally different. That's like a big, it's a big, bold step to take as a writer because you don't know if it's gonna work.

You have no evidence that it will or it won't, so it's a big risk, and it takes time, and time is incredibly valuable to those of us who write books. So good for you. That is a great story. Hopefully it serves as an inspiration to people out there who have that idea, but they don't quite know what genre it fits in, but they love the idea.

They can't let it go. It's

Dina Marie: you're absolutely ri- you're absolutely right. I started with, zero readers. Because I also recognized at some point that my thriller readers really had no interest in this genre. So I really was starting from zero. And that during that first year, this was 2024, there were so many things I had to figure [00:10:00] out.

How long will the books be? What were the titles going to be? What were the covers going to look like? Was this gonna be in KU or not? Was I going to rapid release these books? The... And I, but I had decided early on that I wasn't going to rush the process. I was gonna give myself a good nine, 10 months to figure out the first few books of this series.

So while I started writing Going Ghost in January of 2024, I didn't come out with the book until October. So I gave myself 10 months, and I think that was a good... and during that time, I was able to figure out all the answers to those questions and start developing a readership through newsletter swaps and things like that.

So it really worked out

lisa: So tell us about, now this is book eight, is that correct?

Dina Marie: Yes, this is book eight. Grateful Ghost came out in last month in August. And as the books that came before it, it's a paranormal cozy mystery set in Salem, Massachusetts. My amateur sleuth, Clara Kelly, is volunteering [00:11:00] at a Thanksgiving food drive and community dinner when, lo and behold, a fellow volunteer is found dead beside an open safe with cash in his hand.

And when his ghost appears, she realizes that there's been some foul play, 'cause that's the telltale sign. If a ghost hasn't passed over and is lingering here on earth, is tethered to the earth, that means there's been some suspicious circumstances surrounding his death, his or her death. And at the...

when that happens, she, along with William Kensington, who we mentioned before, her bestie, her paranormal bestie, her ghost cat, and her Shih Tzu boy set off to find the killer. And at the same time in this book she's also preparing a Thanksgiving dinner of her own where she plans to tell her boyfriend, Sebastian, that not only can she see ghosts, but she is living with one at Kensington House.

So not only does she have a murder to solve, she's got a pretty awkward dinner conversation [00:12:00] that she's gotta deal with.

lisa: Oh my God, so she's with Sebastian?

Dina Marie: I'm sorry. Spoiler alert. I'm so sorry.

lisa: That's okay. I figured it was coming, I just didn't know when, and I was like, "Poor William is gonna be so sad." And so is he... So I'm going on to number four. Does he

Dina Marie: OK。

lisa: role? 'Cause he wasn't, he didn't play a huge role in this last book that I read, and so I was wondering, is gonna be more prevalent in the, the coming books?

Dina Marie: It's funny you should ask that because I had outlined these early books, I'd say books one through four, very early on. And so in book four Clara actually takes a trip out of Salem to Las Vegas. So William actually stays home and supervises some home construction projects that are going on at Kensington House, but they communicate via phone.

lisa: Okay

Dina Marie: but what's really interesting [00:13:00] is after I'd say a lot of the reviews I got after book four from readers, they were saying, "Okay, e- enough of this. We need more William. More William." Y- yes. And so after book four, I was determined to make sure that William was present on every excursion, every trip outside of Salem.

He's going to be more prevalent and more prominent, I should say, in every book going forward.

lisa: I love that you're so flexible that you can respond to readers' requests, because

Dina Marie: yeah

lisa: thing I was like, "Okay, this is all great, and she's solving mysteries, but where's my boy?"

Dina Marie: Exactly.

Yeah, he's if someone had to ask me what the most popular character in the series is, it was far and away William Kensington, yeah.

lisa: Absolutely.

Dina Marie: Yeah, and he's a character that just came to me as I was at that publishing conference. He's just... I wanted somebody who was debonair and courageous and loyal and so [00:14:00] interesting, and I wanted to place him in a place in history in a time period that I found interesting.

So I chose that, the whole... I love I- you've read book two, which is called Ghost Rider, and you learn really what happened to William that got him tethered like he is, and I had so much fun with the history in that book, talking about John Wilkes Booth and, Union soldiers, and it was just a blast

Beth McMullen: I love the I love those bits of history that show up

Dina Marie: Yeah

Beth McMullen: in, contemporary novels because it just, it feels like you've opened... It's like opening doors, right? So you've got your current setting and everything's modern, but then you bring in, you sprinkle on this stuff, and it gives it like a, just gives it a richer, deeper feeling, which I love.

And obviously, you've done your homework on it so that it comes across as authentic, which I love it. So if you were going to... I'm obsessed with [00:15:00] those listings, if you like X book, you will like Y book, 'cause this is how I find everything that I want to read that, anyth- anything that is not a, a recommendation from somebody I know, that's how I find stuff.

If you were gonna compare this series to something that already exists, what do you think you would choose?

Dina Marie: I would say based on the reviews I've gotten for the series, 'cause I, I do tend to read them, that most readers who mention comparable titles or media say that the series is most like Ghosts, the television show Ghosts. Which I have not seen, but I've seen, coming attractions for it and previews and stuff and it...

I can see the similarities. But I th- and I think what I and I think what I see the most is there's a playfulness about it that I think I try to create in the series. I think one of, w- an interesting comment that my daughter made about Salem Spirits is that she's read I [00:16:00] think the first three or four books also, and she says, she said to me the other day, when I read these books, Mom, I feel like I'm talking to you."

And I think that's correct. I think there's, the way the books are written they just, I've written them the way I speak. It, they're very, short sentences and just a lot of, ughs and oh nos and just... I, I, a very conversational. Which is very different from my work in the thriller genre.

So that's been really fun to do.

lisa: Yeah, it's really light. It's

Dina Marie: Yes

lisa: And then also your, comp is perfect, because I am a huge Ghosts fan. I watched... I've watched all the BBC version the American version. The

Dina Marie: Oh my gosh

lisa: You have to, if you're gonna watch it, everyone start with the BBC version because it's so funny. And then there's a new Australian version coming out that

Dina Marie: Oh my gosh

lisa: It's such a good sh- You need to get on it and watch that show,

Dina Marie: I do. I d- I'm writing this down.

lisa: I don't... it's, I'm [00:17:00] obsessed with all things ghosts too, so it just is that, I think that's... I just love your, I love your books because of that, and it just...

Dina Marie: Aw.

lisa: who's likes that kind of paranormal, friendly ghost, it's not scary, it's just light, and if you're into that kind of stuff, you're gonna love this series

Dina Marie: Oh, I hope so. I hope so. 

Beth McMullen: I gotta

Dina Marie: I've always been fascinated

Beth McMullen: watched it, but I, now I'm sold. I'm sold. I'm watching it. Sorry, what were you... You were saying you were fascinated by

Dina Marie: no. I was just saying I've always been fascinated by the paranormal and ghosts. And I don't know, I don't want this, this interview to go off in a different direction, I'll, I'll- probably one of the most popular questions I'm asked is if I've ever had any experiences with the paranormal.

And I've had little things here and there which are pretty exciting. I've stayed at a hotel that I knew was said to be haunted, and I had done my research going in. It w- I don't know if I can say. I- it's the Montauk Manor out on eastern Long Island. [00:18:00] Yeah, and I stayed there with my husband, and I had done all the research and I heard about, people saying that they heard, tom-toms in the middle of the night, and they saw a Native American standing at the foot of their bed, when they woke up in the morning.

So I went there thinking I was going to see that and hear that, and of course, I didn't. So I was disappointed. But the last morning we were there I was lying in bed. I opened my eyes, and there were these two white orbs floating over me, and I was I was just petr- petrified. I was just...

I was s- I couldn't believe what I was seeing. So I was lying there with the blanket up to my chin, closing my eyes, opening them, closing and opening, just making sure that I knew that I was seeing what I was seeing. I peered over at my husband, who was sound asleep. And I've had people ask me since then, "Why didn't you grab your cellphone?"

And I said to them, "You don't understand. When you're seeing something otherworldly, it really stops you in your tracks." And so I was [00:19:00] really watching them, and I was just... I can still see it to this day. And then it was only... They were only there, I'd say, for maybe 30 seconds to a minute, and then they were gone.

But I, immediately... And I didn't even know that white orbs were a thing I, at the time. And then when they were gone, I grabbed my phone and I Googled white or- and sure enough, it was like, oh, this represents... How big were they? I would say they were the size of just s- maybe just smaller than a basketball.

Yeah, pretty high up, though. I'd say maybe three, four, four feet above me. Yeah. It was very wild. It was very wild.

Beth McMullen: Yeah.

Dina Marie: So the- things like that

Beth McMullen: Yeah, I grew up in a house that was built in the, the 1800s, and I grew up in New York, and it was a really old house. And it had been a boarding house at one point, and it was... I was convinced it was 100% haunted. And there was an attic that [00:20:00] was so creepy. Still when I think about that attic, it gives me chills.

I did not like going into the attic. And it was like a full floor, not like a crawl space. It was a floor. You went up the stairs. And I was up there one time and I saw, and it was just like a flicker almost, it was this woman, old woman in a black dress, and her her hands had severe arthritis. I could tell.

They were all gnarled and, and it... But it was almost like a blink of an eye. It was almost like I could say to myself, "You just conjured that in your head." I... But from what, I wouldn't have been able to say, but it was definitely up there in the attic. and then many probably years later, I learned that the woman who had originally own- owned the house, who ran it as a boarding house, had severe arthritis.

Dina Marie: ค่ะ

Beth McMullen: had this incredible... her hands were non-functional by the time she died. 

Dina Marie: Oh my gosh

Beth McMullen: in the moment, I was like, "Wait a minute. Back up. You gotta tell me that." I was so [00:21:00] freaked out. And then I, you always say to yourself I probably heard it from..." at some point, but I have memory of ever hearing anything about her other than the, the room that was my bedroom was her sitting room in the house.

Dina Marie: Wow

Beth McMullen: she died there, right? And I was getting haunted by her. But after that, I was like, "Yeah I believe. I believe in all this stuff. They're

Dina Marie: Absolutely. Absolutely.

lisa: Okay,

Dina Marie: Of cour-

lisa: a ghost story

Dina Marie: yay

lisa: So years ago, I was probably 25, and I was just living in a condo. There was no... I don't know, like, where this would come from. I woke up one time, it was probably like 4:00 or 5:00 in the morning, and I woke up because I could feel something, somebody was in the room with me, and I lived by myself. And I was on my side, and off to my side and... But I could feel like somebody was right next to the bed. And so it took me probably 30 seconds or so, whatever, to build up the courage to turn around to see if [00:22:00] somebody was there. And there was a man standing there, and he had...

I'll never forget what he... I'll just- It's imprinted in my memory. He had a long white robe wh- and it was, like, tied off with a rope, and he had really white hair, kinda like your hair, like very silvery white, and it was right to here. And his face was super wrinkled, just like really wrinkled, and it was, like, super leathery tan kinda thing. And his arms were up hold- up in front of him, and he was just leaning forward and staring at me. And it was... He was probably there for a good 45 seconds. We made i- I was wide awake. We made eye contact, and I sat there staring at him. He stared at me, and then he literally just dissolved.

Beth McMullen: Oh!

lisa: be something it wasn't like a dream that carried over. Do you know what I mean? And I remember on the lights, and I just sat there for hours before I went to work, just [00:23:00] freaking out. 

Beth McMullen: Yeah.

lisa: my God.

Beth McMullen: It's really

Dina Marie: Oh my gosh

lisa: that's ever happened to me. And I'm

Beth McMullen: I love it

lisa: was, did it...

Could it get carried over for a dream? But it was, like, too long. You know what I mean? It

Beth McMullen: Yeah

lisa: after the dre- like, after I

Dina Marie: Угу

lisa: for it to carry over, so that's my big

Beth McMullen: Whoo!

lisa: story.

Dina Marie: Wow!

Beth McMullen: it. We've definitely we've gone on a tangent, but it's a good one. It's a good one. I've always been obsessed with the paranormal and ghost stories even as, as a kid, as an adult. It's all great stuff. we're gonna ask you one more question. Who is your ideal reader? What is the audience that you hope will pick up this series?

Dina Marie: I, I guess I'm seeing that my readership skews older. I would say 40, 50 plus. But at the same time, by no means does that mean that young people are not reading the series. My ideal reader, honestly, I think my ideal reader is just people who are looking for [00:24:00] something light. I think what I've found so amazing about this series is that and I didn't realize this when I re- when I wrote it, is that people are looking for some feel-good stories.

And I know it sounds strange to say that a series of murder mysteries are feel-good stories but I really do intend them to be. And I think because of the paranormal elements, I think that's what's making it feel so feel good because, according to the world that I've created, when we pass on, our souls pass on.

We... There- there's something after this. So after we die, we're seeing that, our souls continue, and we see family, and we go on. And I think that's very comforting for me to think about, and I'm finding that it's very comforting for readers. So I think my ideal reader would be anyone looking for a feel-good story to read maybe on a rainy day or, i've had [00:25:00] readers tell me that they listen to the books while they're cleaning or they're... one reader I remember just said to me the other day, "When I was painting my house." So anyone who's looking for a short story to just pass the time and that's uplifting. I don't know.

Beth McMullen: That's ... No, that's perfect. That's exactly what, that's exactly what I look for now. I don't wanna read anything that

Dina Marie: Yeah

Beth McMullen: heavy, that is too serious, that brings me down. And it sounds like, from the way that you described it, that it's very voicey. It sounds like you. It's got It knows what it is. And yeah.

So that is wonderful. Thank you so much for coming on and talking

Dina Marie: Thank you for having me. Thank you

Beth McMullen: This was really fun. For readers, you can find out more about Dina by visiting our podcast notes and the blog at writerswithwrinkles.net, and I will put purchase links in the notes so you can

Dina Marie: Oh,

Beth McMullen: the books.

Dina Marie: thank you

Beth McMullen: yeah, and thank you for letting us experiment on you. I love this segment already. We really were, like, [00:26:00] excited to get back into talking about books, so this was a great way to kick it off. And until then, happy reading, writing, and listening

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