Want to Write a Graphic Novel? A First Second Editor Explains

Ivan Taurisano Interview

Beth McMullen: [00:00:00] Hi Friends. I'm Beth McMullen

Lisa: And I'm Lisa Schmidt

Beth McMullen: And we're the co-hosts of Writers With Wrinkles. This is Season 5, Episode 29, and today we are very excited to welcome Ivan Taurisano back to the show. Ivan is an associate editor at First Second Books, where he's on the lookout for commercial laugh-out-loud stories with quirky characters that make kids fall in love with reading. He holds an MA in children's literature and an MFA in writing for children And has worked across every corner of children's publishing, from board books and picture books to middle grade and graphic novels. Originally from Rome, Ivan moved to the United States to chase his dream of becoming a children's book editor. And you did it. You chased the dream and you achieved it. I love

that. 

Ivan: I did. It was a big dream and it was a big journey but, it just shows that when you believe in something and you really want it you can do it. Which is the lesson that I always say we should all learn from the publishing industry. Persevere. Go after that [00:01:00] dream

Beth McMullen: Okay, this is just an aside. What made you want to chase being an editor? A lot of people are like, "I wanna be a children's book writer. That's my dream. I wanna write picture books," or whatever. You don't hear a lot of people saying, "My dream was to chase being a book editor." How did you know that was the thing that you wanted to be and to do?

Ivan: Because I wanted to know where stories came from. I wanted to be part of the creation of the story, the, rather than just be a spectator of it. It all started when I read James and the Giant Peach, which is my favorite book, and the book that I always say inspired me to move here. James in the story moves from Europe to New York and writes a book for children, right?

I remember reading that book, and I remember reading it in Italian, and very quickly learned, oh, this book is a translation, so it means someone wrote it in a different language, and I don't have access to it. I can't understand it. And then when I found the translation at an older age, I realized, [00:02:00] oh, before this book reached me, someone was working on it.

What was it when it started? What was this book before it was a book, right? All of those questions made me understand some people make books, right? Some people... these are not just growing on trees, there is someone who helped this author, who I really admire, to make this book. And I wanted to do that because I just love to be at the very ground level of a project.

I just love to know I had a hand in making that book but it's invisible, which I think it really is the job of an editor. We're meant to be invisible, I know that in graphic novels there is this very unique thing that happens on a copyright page where unlike picture books and prose books, it does say edited by Ivan Tarrizano, so my name is there.

But I always liked the idea that one day I could be in a bookstore and I could see a child reading one of the books that I edited and just see how much they love them, but they never knew. They will never know that I know, right? Because they don't know that I touched that book. That's really what made me move [00:03:00] and want to be a children's book editor.

Lisa: Have you yet seen a kid reading a book yet?

Ivan: Yes. Yes. When I was at Source Books people know that when I was at Source Books I used to work on the How to Catch picture book series, and I remember one time I think it was a couple of years ago, maybe even more I went to the Barnes & Noble on Fifth Avenue here in New York, and there was i- how to Catch Santa Claus had just come out at the time.

And there was this kid who was reading it, and there are 30 picture books in the series, and this kid in front of his mom said, "Finally. I was hoping they would do a Santa Claus one," right? And I was right there, and I was the person who edited that book along next to the editorial director at the time.

And it was just so satisfying because I think that when we were thinking about the book, the conversation really was, "Look, we have 25 books. We still haven't done Santa Claus here. Is it time?" And we all agreed that it was time, right? And it was just so beautiful because it's the moment we realized, when you realized all the work that I have done is giving this kid, and probably many other, [00:04:00] exactly what they wanted, which is ultimately the beauty of this industry, right?

Like, when you know that a child got exactly what they wanted after years of working on that book is just the beau- the most beautiful thing. And I think it's gonna happen again, and that's the beauty of working on a lot of commercial stuff that, you can be in Target and see a child holding that book.

Like right now I'm working on the Investigator series, the graphic novel series that we have.

Lisa: my God, I love those.

Ivan: There are five million books in the world,

Lisa: So good 

Ivan: there are kids talking about it all the time. I follow...

Lisa: it.

Ivan: Me too. I follow the fan page on Instagram even though I'm the editor

Lisa: That is ... I just have to stay, like stay here for a moment, because that is so clever.

Ivan: Yes

Lisa: I have a chapter book series that's been out on sub, and I remember my agent was like, "Have you read The Investigators?" And I'm like, "Are you kidding me?" It's

like the 

Ivan: It's,

perfect. From the name, like just the name, right? I always... when I talked to John Patrick Green the first time, and I was like a [00:05:00] little fanboy, it was like I can't believe I'm working on this. But I told him, I said, "This is the most clever thing ever." 

Lisa: my God 

Ivan: you found the word, you created two characters, and and that's why it's working so well, and now we're up to book 10. There is a spinoff of the series, a- and it's great when you hear from kids. I think like for a series like that it's even more satisfying because they are not picture book age readers. They're older. They're more vocal. They tell you "I convinced my mom to buy me this book," and it's just so nice. It's just so nice

Lisa: Oh my God,

Beth McMullen: That's it. Okay, 

Lisa: fan

Beth McMullen: gotta go... I haven't read these. I gotta go find

Ivan: YouTube

Beth McMullen: are, like, so exci- I d-

Lisa: Oh

Beth McMullen: am not in the know. I'm gonna get myself in the know.

Lisa: are investigators.

Ivan: Yes.

Lisa: It's so cute.

Ivan: It's middle grade. They're very short, like 200 and... Yes, it's a scary one

Beth McMullen: Love it already

Lisa: saw it, I was like, "Oh my God."

And that's the thing about books.

Sometimes it's like if there's a clever hook, it's like whatever the story is, 

Ivan: yeah.

Lisa: you've got [00:06:00] the hook,

Ivan: Yeah.

Lisa: that's it.

Ivan: You have the formula. Yeah, you have the formula there and it's a great... it really is great. And, it's right up there with Dog Man, it, those are the two big middle grade series in graphic novels, Dog Man and Investigators right now

Lisa: Yeah.

Beth McMullen: Ugh.

Lisa: brilliant

Beth McMullen: Let's move on to graphic novels because everybody has questions about graphic novels. Everybody. It seems like all the writers wanna write one because they are so enormously popular right now. So for writers who are new to graphic novels, what makes writing one fundamentally different from writing a traditional novel?

Ivan: That is a great question, and I'm actually going to answer specifically about the difference between a graphic novel and a prose novel, not necessarily a picture book. And the reason is because I think it's closer to that. Let's say a middle-grade novel versus a middle-grade graphic novel.

I think the most important thing to remember is that when you're writing it, you're not the only person who's working on the book, [00:07:00] just like for a picture book. You're writing so that someone is going to illustrate. So it's a collaborative pro- Type of work. It's also very different the way you think about your writing because you're not trying to write beautiful prose.

You're trying to be clear. You're not ... Most of what you're writing on the page is actually dialogue. Name of the character, colon, and then what the character is saying. Very rarely or unless you feel like you're really good at that, you're going to give art notes. You're going to say, "Here is a quick paragraph that sets the scene that you are seeing in this panel."

But you're not writing the story the way you write a prose novel. You're not thinking about character development the same way because you know that a lot of the character development is gonna happen in the art. So I always say to creators, you're writing a screenplay at the end of the day.

You're not writing a s- you're not writing a book. You're writing a sc- a screenplay that is only going to become a book and a story after the art [00:08:00] is done, which is not true for picture books. A picture book without art is still a story. You can still read the entire story and understand it but not in the same way as you would with a graphic

Like, a graphic novel is just different. And I think another big piece of it is we don't think about it in terms of like word count, you will never hear anyone say, "What is the word count of this graphic novel?" We talk about page count. And the reason is that it's just like a novel, like in a novel sorry it's like a novel where you think about how many words is this. You think about pages and it's just because you are not counting like how many words each character is saying. That's all you can count in a graphic novel because al- the only text that you have in a graphic novel is in a speech bubble, is what the character is saying.

The only exception is what we call a caption box which is where you say something like, "A long time ago," or, "Meanwhile," or somewhere else. That's the only exception. 99% of the text in a graphic novel is just speech bubbles [00:09:00] and the reason why it's really hard to write a graphic novel as a first-time writer is that you are not seeing visually on the page what you're used to seeing when you're writing in prose.

You're like, "Is this really enough?" Sometimes like I s- I talk to my creators and they're like, "Okay, I have panel one, two, three and four on this page and character A is saying something in panel one and three and characters B is saying something in panels two and four. Is that enough?" Yes, that's enough.

The characters are having a conversation, right? But sometimes you have to let go of that idea of like I need to add more. The art is going to do a lot. And I know that we're gonna talk a little bit more about specifically the format of a graphic novel, how you submit it. So I'm gonna talk more about that later.

But I think to start the big difference is just it's a very different style of writing. You're thinking about things that a prose writer doesn't necessarily think about. You're thinking slightly more like a picture book [00:10:00] creator, I would say

Lisa: Yeah it's interesting. I have so many friends that, you know... So for example, when I go to Barnes & Noble and I'm stalking children in children's books, which I often do, is they all go, they gravitate to the graphic novels.

Ivan: Yes

Lisa: it is I just watch them. They all just go there. And I could be on fire, like holding my book and being like look over here," and they're like, " Meh. What's that? I want, I want the graphic. No, I want The Investigators"

Ivan: Yeah

Lisa: that book. And so I have a lot of friends who are trying to make that transition to stay relevant or to pivot and write, go from writing prose to graphic novels.

Ivan: Угу

Lisa: And I think one of the things that I, we do get is what is the standard formatting?

I know, I don't know if there's some place they can go to find this or how they can learn how to do this specific skill, because it is very different, and I imagine it's a lot like writing a picture book, and a lot of middle-grade writers aren't picture book [00:11:00] writers. So

Ivan: No

Lisa: the formatting and how it's supposed to look is all really new to them.

So if you could do a little bit of a

Ivan: 100%. 100%. The first thing that I wanted to address is, because you bring up, up a really good point, which is why are kids obsessed with graphic novels, right? And why specifically it looks like middle grade age kids are obsessed with graphic novels. There is a very, there, there are, there is a very specific reason.

One of the biggest criticism of graphic novels, the reason why a lot of librarians and book sellers go to war just like editor with, editors with people who complain about graphic novels, is that what some people say is graphic novels have a lot of art, so it doesn't feel like it's a big jump from a picture book for some kids.

And graphic novels are s- you read them so much quicker than a prose novel because you can just flip through the pages, read the panels, right? But at a pla- at a time in our industry where it is absolutely undeniable, this is undeniable, that kids who are ages 8 to 12 are looking [00:12:00] for shorter, more pl- more propulsive books, they gravitate toward books that are more propulsive because of their nature, because you can read them faster, and have more pictures.

And the reason that some people don't like that these kids are reading books with a lot of pictures is that, "Oh, you were reading picture books. It was the same thing." It's not the same thing. Sequential art requires a much higher level of understanding and comprehension of the story. It is so hard for a child who has never read a graphic novel to understand how to understand...

how to read a sequence from panel one at the top of the page to panel six at the bottom. They need to understand that. So there, a lot of the criticism doesn't really take into account the work that the child has to do to learn how to read a graphic novel, which is why in a lot of my books that I'm working on right now, we started including on the very first page a [00:13:00] how to read comics page that teaches kids how do you read this.

It's also for parents, because sometimes parents are like, "I am not sure what I'm giving my child." So now that I've answered that, let me talk about the format. So usually what I receive is a couple of things, and this depends on is this a script-only submission, meaning there is no artist attached yet, or is this a author plus illustrator or author/illustrator ver- submission.

If it's a script only, usually I receive a, either the full script or a partial script. A great thing about graphic novels is that unlike prose novels, you can sell it on proposal. You don't need the full script. I don't un- don't ask me why. There is no reason for that, but that's what it is. I usually receive a full script or a partial script, a pitch, like a quick pitch, what is the book about?

What is my logline for it? [00:14:00] Then I will receive the synopsis for the whole story because if there isn't a full script or even if I have the full script, I still wanna have something that it's easier to read faster that I can share with everyone because no one has time to read the whole script right away.

And then a little bit about the author, this is the very simple part. When there is an illustrator attached- you will re- normally receive or ask for everything that I've mentioned, so partial script or full script, a synopsis and a pitch, plus what we call sample pages. Sample pages are essentially illustrations from the book that the artist creates to give a sense of what the final book will look like.

These are usually a combination of pencils and final art. Pencils is just to give you more pages to look at because pencils are faster to draw. There's usually a couple of pages of final art because you wanna be able to walk into an acquisition room and say, "This page shows you what the final book will look like once you open it.

So [00:15:00] essentially this is what we're aiming for." It's usually a PDF. It's usually between 20 and 30 pages, depending on, like, how much you have. If you have the full script, of course, it's much longer. And it includes all the necessary i- information about who the creators are, the agents, the story.

Most of the time when there is an illustrator attached the pitch itself, the PDF, will be very beautiful. They will include all of their characters. They will make it look pretty. To give you an example, I've recently received a submission for a dragon series that I'm very excited about.

And all the paper around looked like it was burned, s- a piece o- like a one- one portion of it looked like there were bite marks on it. You really make it so appealing, right? So that people get excited. And usually final art is literally the panels. They will decide a page.

And usually the idea would be that for the sample pages, you use pages that illustrate as much as possible, like an action scene or a scene where you really get to show most of what's [00:16:00] in the book. You will look for something detailed, something that can capture attention.

For the script, usually if it's a partial, you just don't get to pick a, a section in the middle. You start from the top. It would be, like, three chapters, right? And the reason why I always prefer to at least have a partial script is because it is very important to read for voice and tone. You want to understand what is the voice of the story.

And some people ask me, "How can you read voice when it's not prose?" You totally can because you understand how this writer is thinking about, like- How do I reveal character when I only have dialogue? In a graphic novel, you will never have a line like, "She was looking wistfully at the ocean far a-", you will never have that.

That, that can be art, right? The character, if you want to essentially reveal how she's feeling as she's looking at the ocean, she needs to say something. And she cannot say, [00:17:00] "I'm longing for..." Like she, she's not gonna say "I am looking wistfully at the ocean far a-", no. You need to come up with a sentence that is going to convey to the reader like how she's feeling in the moment, and that sentence can only come from the character herself.

That's why it's so hard. It forces you to reveal character more. And there is a reason why kids are obsessed with graphic novel characters, because the character development that goes into it is enormous. Because you're, like at the end of the graphic novel process when it's done, there is this portion of the process called line editing, where in a prose novel line editing means going line by line and fixing the language at the line level.

In a graphic novel, it means going line by line in the dialogue and asking yourself, "Do I understand this character? After everything she says, does this add up to a full fleshed out character?" And that's essentially the work that we do. And I always say to creators, in your proposal, whether you have an agent or not don't add too much about just [00:18:00] who you are and why you're the best person to write this.

Trust the fact that you're sending something to an agent and an editor, and that says, "I think I'm the best person to write this story," right? But try to make the agent and the editor understand the most important thing which is you understand this medium. You understand that you're not writing a prose novel.

I get frustrated sometimes when I receive ... Let me take a step back so that I can clarify what I'm about to say. There are a lot of agents that just, like creators, have realized, oh, the graphic novel market is booming. Maybe I should get in there, right? And but just like creators maybe they're not familiar with how you submit graphic novels.

Sometimes I receive prose submissions from agents who are telling me, "Do you think this can be a graphic novel?" And my reply, without trying to be snarky or not polite, it's always yes, if you write it as one, right? You have to rewrite it as a graphic novel. I'm, I cannot take a novel and acquire it and [00:19:00] then turn it into a graphic novel.

There is such a thing as an adaptation, a graphic novel adaptation of a novel. Like one of the biggest, most beautiful example is Tuck Everlasting, it's recently been adapted into a graphic novel. It's beautiful. But you need to start with that as a graphic novel. You can't just send me the book and be like, "Adapt it," so there is a lot of confusion from people who are first entering this space about what to do. A great creator who I always suggest because he has written a lot of books literally about graphic novel and how to make them, and the big one is Understanding Comics, is Scott McCloud. That's his name.

M-C-C-L-E-O, C-L-O-U-D. McCloud. He wrote a lot of books. He's also our first second author, and he wrote this big book called Understanding Comics where he explains everything that you can imagine. And to every creator I say read the book and at the end you will know at the very least how to write a graphic novel.

Will you write one? That depends on perseverance

Beth McMullen: Wow. [00:20:00] This is it, I have a thousand questions.

Ivan: Oh, I'm here

Beth McMullen: I was just thinking as you were talking, this is a little bit of an aside.

The popularity with middle-grade readers obviously is huge. We see it in what's got floor space in bookstores. We hear it in conversation. Kids are drawn to these for all the reasons that you said. Is that carrying over into adult readers at all? Are you seeing adult readers who want graphic novels because that's what they... all of our attention spans are shot, so

Ivan: Yeah

Beth McMullen: just the case. But also who cut their teeth on graphic novels and are now young adults, is that still what they're seeking out?

Do, are you seeing that continue in their reading lifespan?

Ivan: 100%. In fact just last year, First Second launched a sister imprint called 23rd Street that is just about adult graphic novels. And the first three titles that we published, one was an Eisner Award winner which is the biggest prize in comic, the biggest [00:21:00] award in comics. 100%. The ... It- it's a different audience, and the books of course look different than the kids' books.

But these are the same creators, these are the same readers who grew up reading Batman and Superman comics, right? And then they're like, yes, of course. Then the world, the industry expanded and they realized, oh, we can publish in this format for kids, but it did start for adults in my opinion, right?

And there are so many beautiful stories, there are some books that I really for example, there is this new series called Clara and the Devil, which is this beautiful sexy romance, between this girl and this demon, and if you are someone who likes the visual aspect of a graphic novel, who often finds them- find themselves, like, reading a prose book and thinking, "Oh, I wish there was an illustration to go with this," right?

That's where you go to a graphic novel, I think there is also Something really beautiful about an adult who isn't afraid of a book with pictures, who doesn't look at a book with pictures and thinks "I'm too old for that," it's the sa- it's the same thing that I say [00:22:00] when I learn that an adult loves fairy tales, fairy tales are not for children. They're not just for children, it's almost... It's beautiful because you get to see someone basically reappropriating of something that society told them, "It's not for you," and that's why it's very exciting to see all these beautiful adult books coming out, it's it... but yes, to answer your question, I'm seeing the popularity all over the industry, even though I will say that middle grade YA market is really where it's exploding. And even, and also if you go younger, right? Think about Pizza and Taco, Narwhal and Jelly, those are, like, huge series.

Huge.

Beth McMullen: It's so interesting. Yeah, I think it's not an either/or for readers, it's an and. You can love prose novels, you can love graphic novels. They cer- they feel different in the experience, so makes sense that, if you like stories, maybe you wanna consume them in these different ways. That is that's so interesting. So you talked a little bit about the visual, this is back a little bit to nuts and bolts.

So [00:23:00] the visual direction that the writer includes in the manuscript if they are not themselves doing the illustrations. Oh, that was the other question I want. Before we do this one, what is the... Are most people doing the illustrations and writing the story, or do you have a lot of partnerships? What is the

Ivan: actually, 

Beth McMullen: approach? 

Ivan: I would say it's really 50/50. My list right now is a combination of both. I think it depends. It's a lot more work for one person to do it, but there are a lot of author-illustrators. I will also say graphic novels are probably the most collaborative format of books out there because, yes, you have picture books where you have an author and illustrator, but here you have an author, an illustrator, someone who do- who does the letters in the balloons.

Very often the c- the person who does the colors is not the same person who does the line art, it's a very collaborative place. But yes, right now I feel like I've seen everything. I've seen author-illustrators who I personally love. It makes it easier to work with just one person.

But really I think right now, most of what I'm getting [00:24:00] is actually two people, author and illustrator

Beth McMullen: So they collaborate themselves and then submit as

Ivan: Yes.

Beth McMullen: That,

Ivan: And

Beth McMullen: super

Ivan: yeah, and usually they either share the agent or have two separate agents

Beth McMullen: Okay. Fascinating. Okay, sorry, I totally derailed us. We

were 

Ivan: non

Beth McMullen: nuts and bolts and I went, I spun off into, who's doing this work?

Lisa: Just to interject real quick, I actually, I ha- I do have a friend that he has an agent

Ivan: Ага

Lisa: that was an artist, and they needed somebody to write the story for it,

Ivan: Yes

Lisa: that is exactly what happened. And so

Ivan: Yeah

Lisa: Yeah. Anyway, go ahead.

Beth McMullen: this is, you can tell this is a topic that we're like, "Ah,

Ivan: Oh, I'm excited

Beth McMullen: about." So if you're, say you're this new person and you're down with doing this and you've read 1,000 graphic novels, so you're immersed, much visual direction are you putting in that manuscript? Is there a balance?

How much is too much? Sort of some of the same questions that you [00:25:00] get with picture book writers, but this

is of course a different thing, so different roles.

Ivan: It's, it is a different thing, but I always keep the same answer, right? Which is are you leaving an ar- are you leaving a note that expands or clarifies, or are you leaving a note that comes from a place of I am afraid that the artist is not gonna do this if I don't put it in there, right?

I will say that one of the things that I like to see is l- very little art direction in this case. The reason is that in a graphic novel, something that I also like to leave up to the illustrator is decide how to panel and compose the page. What I mean by that is that you can write a graphic novel where the script says page 10, panel one, what the characters say, panel two, what the characters say, and that is the cr- the writer telling the artist, "This page is gonna have four panels.

That page is gonna have six panels." But you can also write a graphic novel as page 10, and then just everything that [00:26:00] goes on page 10, and then the illustrator decides, "How many panels do I need for this?" I think it's always good to have some art notes. They're al- often necessary in some places where maybe like there is very little text because, you want the art to do most of it, but you need to clarify for the artist what's happening there.

But I think like less is always better in this case. The other thing is when the author and illustrator are working together before the project gets to an editor, most of the time they already talked about what the illustrator would like to see. When that hasn't happened and I pair them up, I try to have a conversation with both and say, "Look, how do you normally work, dear illustrator?

What do you like to see in this case?" Because my job as an editor is also when the script is final, is approved, it's in my inbox. Very often, without even talking to the writer, I get rid of some stuff that I know is not gonna be necessary for the illustrator to see, and I just send it to the illustrator, it's not like I'm changing the story, but I know that there is an art note that I'm like, okay, that, the author [00:27:00] really wanted to keep it there, but they don't need to know that the illustrator didn't see it, right? It's also your job to manage these relationships a little bit.

Because a big part of the graphic novel industry which- I think it's like self-explanatory, but I didn't realize that a lot of people don't realize that is the illustrator gets a lot more money than the writer, like a lot more money. The reason is that these are people who are working for two years eight hours a day.

It takes a long time to, to draw a graphic novel, and more often than not, you can't take any other work because you only have that book. So I am paying you a salary essentially at the end of the day, right? And the other side of that is, of course, this is not true for brand new graphic novelists, but experienced graphic novelists, they don't need a year to write a script for a graphic novel.

Most of the time when I'm signing up a deal, I'm asking for the first draft like three months after you sign the contract, and most of the time, like that script is done in six months since you acquired the project. [00:28:00] It's just because it takes less time, like also think about the fact that a 100-page script, like a 100-page Word document, it's not a 100-page book.

It's so much longer than that because then it gets paginated, so yeah, like I always say, like lesser direction, leave freedom to the illustrator, and also ask yourself like, "Why am I leaving this note?" Always make sure that you can answer the question, why am I leaving this note? Is it necessary?

Because the other thing is that you don't want to be someone who slows down the project because you're still familiarizing yourself with the medium that you're working in.

Lisa: Yeah, that leads really well into the next question, is a- and I think you might have already answered it, but I'm sure there's other mistakes that people are making. So let's talk about that. What are, like, some of the biggest mistakes that you've seen come across your desk where you just roll

your eyes and say, "No"?

Ivan: I think it depends. So if we're talking about mistakes I'm already [00:29:00] working with someone, those are usually the normal mistakes that you would see, like, when you're working with any writer, you know? They're not thinking maybe about the entire arc of a character, or maybe sometimes creators feel like, "Oh, because I don't have to overexplain because it's not prose," sometimes they trust the reader to understand things too much, and then I am an as the reader and editor, I'm like, "I don't understand what's happening here." Another mistake that I s- it's not a mistake, it's a thing that happens.

The very first stage for artists is what we call thumbnails. Thumbnails are, like, very rough. Think about stick figures. It's just to show you the overall composition. Sometimes there is an expectation that you will get notes from an editor on that, that will significantly help you to strengthen the story.

But I'm very honest and I'm like, "I don't know what I'm looking at. That stick figure, I don't know who that is. It's a stick figure. I don't know if they have a gender. I don't know if they have a name," but y- these are some things. Mistake that I see, mistakes that I see before I even acquire a project is when there is a very big disconnect between [00:30:00] who the audience of the book is and what the art looks like.

That's the biggest mistake that I see, I always say, if you have a book, right? And you pitch it to me, and you're like, "This is perfect for readers four to seven. It's an early reader book for fans of Pizza and Taco." And then it's a very dark color palette, it's very gloomy, very moody, right?

There is nothing wrong with that, but you are pitching a project that is not the one you're sending, and that can create a situation where I, as the editor, sometimes I go back to creators and agents and say, "Look, I love the art, but you have to age up the characters, and we have to publish this as middle-grade."

Or literally yesterday, I sent an email and I said, "I love this concept, I love this art, but this is something that a 20-year-old would be into, not a nine-year-old. You need to publish this as an adult book," and it's very difficult to say that to an agent, because that was sometimes [00:31:00] the agent job to say, "I don't think we're targeting the right audience," right?

But I wouldn't be doing my job sometimes if, when maybe even we're rejecting a project, I think it's important for me to give my feedback to the agent as an editor who has seen the project. I think it's important for me to say, unless I'm rejecting because it just doesn't resonate with me, in this case, I'm very honest and I'm like, "Look, it just didn't grab me," but most of the time I will say something like, "I just don't think you're targeting the right audience," or, "You're telling me that it's middle-grade, but it reads YA," right? And the reason why there is- All of that happening is that everyone wants to be in middle grade space because it's booming, but n- not everyone can write for that age group because that is an age group that reads in a very different way than your YA readers and than your early reader readers. These are kids who are, like, more independent. These are also kids who are more reluctant leader- readers, right? That's why they love Dog Man, because there is a simplicity [00:32:00] to Dog Man that is both in the text and the art.

But there is also ... I don't know if you've ever read Dog Man, but some of the books are dark. There are some moments in the books where you're like, "Wow, I can't believe this is for kids." He found that perfect balance of I am trusting you, reader, that you can follow me. And that kid who understands I am reading something that maybe I should not be reading because it's a little bit above me, it gives them so much confidence and so much satisfaction that's what turns them into lifetime readers because they're chasing that high of I am reading this.

My mom wishes I was reading something else. My brother is still reading How to Catch, I am reading the next thing. I am reading Dog Man, right? I love when I see that. I love when I see that. I think when if you can write a graphic novel that makes kids feel more confident in their reading abilities and who they are as readers, you've done a huge service to the world[00:33:00] 

Beth McMullen: I love that idea of the material that's slightly above your pay grade, 'cause you feel like you're on the inside then,

Ivan: Yes

Beth McMullen: I'm in the club. I... This is a dark whatever, dark moment and I think that's just so special and, yes, leads you to want more of that

Ivan: it really is that. It's like younger kids, much younger kids when, ... some, some people in the industry talk about this, how younger kids really like picture books about stuff that is physically gross, like poop and boogers, and it's because they think that there is something like almost like this should, it should be prohibited, that I shouldn't read this.

But, my mom wishes I was reading I don't know, Wind in the Pooh, not about someone picking their nose, right? But-

Beth McMullen: it feels like a little bit n- like you're getting away with something, and I think that is such a powerful feeling. My kids when they were little, they're both adults now, but when they were little, [00:34:00] they loved the sort of subversive picture books.

Ivan: Yes

Beth McMullen: where stuff was going on that they knew it was like, "Maybe I shouldn't be reading this."

And of course, I loved them too, so we were all reading them. But such an interesting psychological moment

Ivan: really is. It really is. It really is

Beth McMullen: that. okay, we have, a, a, several thousand listeners who are right now saying, "I'm doing it. I'm writing a graphic novel." What is the one message you want them to understand before they go off and embark on this project?

What's the one thing you would like to say to these prose writers before they begin their graphic novel journey?

Ivan: M- do e- educate yourself about the medium. Learn what a graphic novel looks like. Read it. See if you can find a physical copy of the final gra- version of the book, and see if you can find a new ... These old books [00:35:00] do have that, the script online to see where it started and what it is today.

The reason why I say that is there is a huge difference between a writer who- whose project is rejected by an agent and an editor because it wasn't the right fit, right? You can send the next one. There is a very big difference if your project gets rejected because the agent and the editor are like, "You cannot write a graphic novel.

I would not want to see your next one." Because the answer is not this one didn't resonate, is you don't know how to write it yet. So educate yourself so that by the time you submit your first graphic novel, the only reason why it could be rejected is because it's not a good fit for that person, not because that person doesn't think you can do it.

Because you're re- you would shoot yourself in the foot. You would essentially fail before you even started, right? Educate yourself. Read as many graphic novels as [00:36:00] possible, and specifically read graphic novels for the same audience that you wanna write for because there are differences, to this day, to go back to one of the mistakes, something that sometimes I get is an email from someone who says, "This is my graphic novel, and it's 70,000 words." I'm like, I don't know what that means in a graphic novel because 70,000 words it's not like I can divide it and understand, okay, this is how many words I have per page.

It depends on the dialogue. So when I get that, in my head I already know okay, maybe this is well-written, but do I really wanna work with someone that I have to teach them what they're writing for two years, so educate yourself. Give yourself your best chance to write that graphic novel.

And don't let yourself ... Don't let the fact that it takes less time to write a script trick yourself. Don't, d- don't ... Essentially don't think this is easy because it takes less time to write it. It's actually so much easier to fail exactly for that reason because you think like there are [00:37:00] so many things that I don't have to do if I write a graphic novel versus a prose novel, but the opposite is also true.

There are so many things that you do have to do because you're writing a graphic novel versus a prose novel

Lisa: Yeah, I think about that when whenever I look at picture books, and I think there's such an art to writing a picture book because you have to do so much with so little. And I imagine that graphic novels are the same way. It's like less is more. And that's something we talk about all the time anyway in prose novels is less is more.

Like you don't

Ivan: Yeah

Lisa: to go into these flowery descriptions and, that's where you lose people. So I just, I imagine that it's even harder. Like I can't even... The thought of writ- writing a graphic novel is, it's not even in my wheelhouse. It's no desire. It's it's too hard.

Beth McMullen: write one now. Now I wanna write one. After this conversation, I'm like, "I

gotta do..." No. 

Ivan: you can absolutely do it. I always say,

Lisa: hard 

Ivan: just buy a copy of an investigator's book. Get a copy of [00:38:00] something like Pete Santenaco, right? And look at the structure. Look how he wrote it.

Lisa: Funny. 

Ivan: these are very simple, just that there is a simplicity that it gets to a point where you can't take out a single line of dialogue, a single p- panel without the whole structure coming down, 

Lisa: yeah

Ivan: aiming for. That is really what you're aiming for

Beth McMullen: Every word counts a lot

Lisa: Oh my

Ivan: Yes

Lisa: with that, this has been one of the best episodes I think we've had in ages. You

Beth McMullen: I love it. I'm all excited

Ivan: Oh, thank

Beth McMullen: all excited

Lisa: bring it. And and we- I love listening to you talk.

Ivan: Oh, thank you. Th-

Lisa: just

Ivan: many people have said that to me this week. That's so nice.

Lisa: because you're just so fun to listen to. People are ... I'm just like, "Really?" So okay, so with all that being said, what is at the very top of your manuscript wishlist? What are you thinking? This is what I would love right now. Just throw it out there. We'll see what you get.

Ivan: So [00:39:00] it's very interesting because right now there are a couple of things that I have noticed are working really well in graphic novels. One thing is books for girls about girls, specifically girl friendship. I've noticed that's working extremely well, and I'm talking about the middle grade space right now.

I think we're getting to the point where creators have realized, "Oh, you know what? Girls wanna read about themselves. Girls wanna read about what it means to make friends, what it means to have adventures with a friend." But what I've noticed more than that is how some of these stories are becoming very popular, and that's what I'm looking for, are stories that get very close to what it feels like to be a 10, 11, 12-year-old girl.

And what I mean by that is when you're 9, when you're 10, and you argue with your best friend, and you don't [00:40:00] talk until the next day, that feels like your mom just died, it's "It's the end of the world. I'm done." Those are the stories that are working today, stories that validate those experiences for those kids, you know?

And I like... i'm trying to find more stories about female friendship essentially. And it doesn't matter what is the environment. It could be a sports story, girls playing soccer. It could be, like theater. It could be even just two girls whose parents are divorcing, whatever.

I just want- Books that celebrate the bond between young girls because I think the... i'm really seeing that working a lot. The other thing that I'm seeing working a lot is it's, they always work, dragons. Dragons work all the time. There is just something about dragons, and I think that there is something about the visual medium, the graphic novel format that allows you to show...

imagine just a spread where the dragon is [00:41:00] flying panel by panel. That, it's a very different thing than a picture book where you open it and there is just one dragon there on a spread, right? So I am looking for that. And then what I'm looking for in, more in general is the shorter books are not just happening for middle grade readers.

They're also happening for younger kids. And so I am looking for more books for that, I wanna say four to seven age range that are between 64 and 96 pages, no matter what the topic is. But I'm looking more of that, for more of that, of those books. The reason is that those are the perfect entry-level books to graphic novels, right?

And my goal, of course, as an editor is to raise the next generation of graphic novel readers, right? And you have to make sure they have them available just at the moment when as they're moving on from picture books, and they could go to chapter books, they go to early reader graphic novels instead, so those are some of the things that I'm looking for. And then in general, I've always loved, [00:42:00] everything that has to do with first of all, magic. I'm very interested in finding more stories with new magic systems. And then a story that I'm specifically looking for that I haven't been able to find, like it's been years is a very fresh, very new perspective on, on the immigrant journey.

I think we have so many story- stories about immigrant kids. I think they're always told in the same way, how difficult it was, how hard it is to adjust. My parents speak a different language. My friends make fun of my parents because they have an accent. We ha- we have all of that.

We have all of that. Where is the joy? Where is the excitement? I want a story about how I felt when I was getting on that plane, which was like, "Yes, oh my God, I'm leaving my parents, " But I'm like, "I'm going to New York," you know what I'm saying?

I it was that moment when I was like Where is that? Where is that ex- where is that story about the feeling of a 13-year-old child who knows they're getting on a plane to go to New York [00:43:00] City and build a new life, right? Yes, there is always the fear, there is always the discrimination. You can talk about all of that.

You can talk about the trauma of being an immigrant or a first generation American, right? But we have so many of those books. I want the happy part, I want to see stories about kids coming back home and having dinner with their parents and say, "Oh my God, I learned a thousand new words today.

I'm gonna teach all of them to you." And the scene is just fun because the parents cannot pronounce them the right way, right? But the child is... I want those moments, the moments that I had, right? And I've been looking for that story for a very long time. I missed out on one of books, one book that is like that, which is Parachute Kids.

It's a beautiful graphic novel called Parachute Kids. I wasn't here when the book was being submitted, but that's the book I always say if I could go back, I would wanna get that book

Beth McMullen: There is a lot of amazing things that you're looking for, so I hope some of our listeners are inspired to go out and do these

Ivan: Absolutely. Absolutely. My [00:44:00] inbox is open and I'm always happy to review stuff, and I always, I always give feedback as much as possible if I decide to pass on a project. And I'm also the type of editor where if I decide to pursue a project from someone who doesn't have an agent I'm also more than happy for that person to go out and find an agent, telling them, "Hey, I have an editor who's very interested, but he would prefer that I find an agent first."

And I say that simply because I always encourage everyone to find a representation in the industry not because you need it, but because it's always good to have someone that can review your contracts and make sure you're getting exactly what you deserve, 

Beth McMullen: good advice. This has been so much fun. Thank you so much for taking

Ivan: No, thank you

Beth McMullen: So can I tell our audience that you are preparing for a wedding that is happening very soon? So the fact that you were willing to take out an hour plus of your day and hang out with us, we are so grateful. And your

Ivan: Absolutely

Beth McMullen: are always chock-full of stuff that gets all of our listeners really excited and gets them talking.

So thank you so much for coming on

Ivan: No, thank [00:45:00] you. This was so wonderful. I was so excited when you asked me to come back, and I will always come back for anything that you want me to talk about. But yes my wedding is October 3rd, and 

Beth McMullen: it's

coming 

Ivan: it's, really coming up. It's coming up so fast. And like sometimes, like I-

Beth McMullen: and I are gonna be here waiting breathlessly for the Instagram photos

Ivan: Oh yeah, no. And,

Beth McMullen: feed is a delight and it just, it brings me joy just by its existence. So

Ivan: Thank you

Beth McMullen: us when you're putting those pictures up. 

Lisa: You

Ivan: I will

Beth McMullen: you might.

Lisa: and Lisa." Yeah, and if

Ivan: Here are some pictures.

Lisa: on

Beth McMullen: us

Lisa: Instagram,

Beth McMullen: some pictures.

Lisa: and his his partner, his lovely husband are just

Beth McMullen: Oh

Lisa: cute and just radiate so much love. Every time I see it I'm like, that's so-"

Ivan: my f- yeah, my, my husband says that he works in publishing, but he works in HR, which is a very different side of this industry.

Beth McMullen: so are you like, "Honey, not quite.

Ivan: No.

Beth McMullen: a different department."

Ivan: no, when we first met, when we first met, he was like, "I also work in publishing." And I [00:46:00] was like, "Oh my God, another editor." And he was like no, I'm in HR."

I'm like, "Okay, so you're not in publishing. You're in HR."

Beth McMullen: are not the same. We are not the

Ivan: We have different lives

Lisa: different. You fit.

Beth McMullen: I love it. We are keeping our fingers crossed that it is a beautiful and lovely day, which I'm

Ivan: Thank you

Beth McMullen: will be. So Lisa and I will be back next time with an Ask Beth and Lisa episode. So if you have questions, thoughts, feelings, any of that good stuff, please send them our way. And until next time, happy reading, writing, and listening